The Missing Certification

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The Missing Certification

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Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 1

Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
I do have an MA and BS degree, but haven't had the time to get an MS certs as yet, so curious Jeff, where would I fall in your book based on this and what you have seen here on SSC?
Heh... you should know better than to ask such a question unless you're in an interview. 😛 You know where you stand from the comments I made associated with an article you wrote. Like I said, certs and degrees mean nothing to me... ability does and you might want to go back to that fine article and see what I'm talking about. 😉
Sort of why I put you on the spot. I'll have to look at several of my articles to know for sure which one you are talking about (I'm sure it wasn't my first one).
I am always curious why some companies seem to have problems with their databases going corrupt and such. I can understand hardware problems occuring once in a while and corrupting a database, but it seems like some of these things happen with regularity at some companies. It doesn't make sense. I feel that I have been quite lucky over the last 12+ years that the systems I have been responsible for have been quite stable and reliable (with a single exception, but it never corrupted the database, and once we moved to a new server that problem went away -- turned out to be a bad motherboard in the server and the sys admins kept blaming SQL Server).
I will say this now and I will say this later, the day I stop learning is the day you can bury me.
So, to all you guru's out there (Jeff, Gail, Grant, Gus, Jack, Jason, Paul, Dave, Barry, Alvin, Bob, etc), keep me on my toes and don't stop helping me get better.
SSC is a great place to learn and is full of individuals willing to help others get better. I hope I can keep up with all of you.
My turn to put you on the spot... would you say that you're less valuable to your employer or a future employer in the area of T-SQL because you're not certified? I'm not talking about being a System's DBA here. Does not being certified make you less valueable?

Nice spot to be put in actually, Jeff.

Simple answer, no. I know what I know, and I know what I don't know and should. And there is still the stuff I don't know that I don't know; but that is getting smaller. What I don't know and should, I know I can learn and become proficient (clustering, log shipping for example).

Do I think not having any certs puts me at a disadvantage getting my foot in the door, possibly. Depends on the company and whether the IT group does the initial screening of resumes or if HR does it with no technical recruiter on staff. Previous employer is a good one to look at, HR did the initial screening, but when I got hired they had a very good technical recruiter whom I had actually talked with at a job fair a year previously and she remembered me. In fact, she put the head hunter in his place. He was "gloating" over his getting me to the company and her response was simple "We would have had his resume on our desk within days of advertising the position." I had been trying to get in with that company for several years. Wouldn't want to work there now though, the corporate culture has changed drastically, and not really for the better.

Now, you are back on the spot. Based on what you know of me, what would be one question you'd ask me in an interview. I'll try to answer it without looking anythng up, or I'll tell you I'd have to research it and where I would go to do it. Make it something you would actually ask in an interview.

If you want, PM me the question so others don't see it if necessary. I'm curious what I might face if I had to be interviewed by you. Plus, I am seriously considering looking for other employment so this would be a good place to start preping.

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 2

Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
dma-669038 (3/27/2010)
<<What I find sorely lacking in most resumes is a list of significant accomplishments. I want to know "what have you done in the time you've had and what can you do if I give you some time"? >>
Jeff, how do you think this gap can be bridged, other than the person writing a better resume that is? Or do you think all experience just means nothing more than what the person appears to be in that one hour or however long the interview process takes?
It's an odd gap in some cases. I interviewed one guy for a "hybrid" developer position who claimed more than 10 years experience in both Oracle and SQL Server. He also claimed to be a "9 out of 10" in both right on his resume. I always start out at the bottom of the question pile with folks kind of like someone does while operating a lie-detector machine. I know folks are usually nervous to one level or another when they interview so I talk with them first and then start with some easy questions just to get them used to the idea of being asked questions. Now, remembering that he claimed 10 years of experience in both SQL Server and Oracle as well as being a "9 out of 10" in both, what do you think I did when he couldn't tell me which functions (just wanted 1 for Oracle and 1 for SQL Server) to use to get the current date and time? Heh... it was supposed to be a bloody "ice breaker" question! After not being able to answer 4 more "starter" questions of similar scope, would you say I was wrong in summarily dismissing his claims of experience and the fact the he had a Masters Degree in CIS?
The gap you speak of is easily bridged by the kind of people that I look for whether they have real experience or not. There's no magic to bridging the so called gap and I don't ask trick questions in the interviews. The closest thing I ask to a trick question is that I'll find out someone's weak spot and ask them a question or two about it. They'll usually get one question wrong because it IS their weak spot. This does two things... it shows me how they deal with things they may not be comfortable with and, when I show them the correct answer, it also shows me what their attitude and ability to learn new things is.
Or do you think all experience just means nothing more than what the person appears to be in that one hour or however long the interview process takes?
Ok, so let me turn this around on you a bit. Considering all of the experience that one fellow had on his resume and the fact that he had a Masters Degree in CIS, would YOU have still hired him based on his supposed "experience" and/or pedigree? Of course you wouldn’t and that’s precisely what I’m talking about.
And, yeah... one hour is more than enough to ascertain the truth about one's “experience” and a whole lot more.
I’m not trying to be argumentative here. I’m trying to warn good folks that even something as well conceived as the proposed MCJ won’t prevent posers, liars, and ring knockers from pulling the wool over some good folks eyes that know they need a good DBA but don’t know what questions to ask. There’s an easy way around that little problem. Talk with your business buddies that do have a DBA. With their permission, offer to pay that DBA for the time he/she spends interviewing people for you after hours. Just because someone has the proposed MCJ shouldn’t be the only reason to hire someone.

I would never suggest that anyone hire someone just because they had the proposed MCJ. I am suggesting, however, that if done correctly that it may provide that hiring manager with enough confidance to know that this person has experience and knowledge beyond that of someone with an MCITP. One of the things that seems to have come up in this discussion is the idea of peer review. Would this be difficult to achieve, possibly, but it could minimize the number of posers, liars, and ring knockers that get the certification.

One way this could work, would be through PASS. Pass holds a major conference annually in Seattle for instance and holds peer review sessions for individuals seeking the MCJ. They could also start looking at smaller regional conferences quarterly (ala TDWI, for instance) around the country where they would hold similiar sessions.

Could these be done outside of the conferences, sure. SQL Server Users Groups that are PASS chapters could also become certified to hold such sessions. This would spread the work around, and help develop the SQL Server communities speaker pool (as several noted).

I think the bottom line is developing a certification that actually means something and isn't just a meaningless TLA or piece of paper. In fact, I actually believe that the proposed MCJ should require recertification every three to five years or the individual loses the right to use the MCJ. This puts more on the individual to keep up to-date with the changing technologies around MS SQL Server, if only to understand what is changing. Writing articles, presenting personally developed material at UG meetings and conferences, taking or teach college courses, or any other ideas people may have here could be used for recertification points (or what ever you want to call it).

Chad Crawford SSChampion Points: 11610 More actions · Answer 3

Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
Now, you are back on the spot. Based on what you know of me, what would be one question you'd ask me in an interview. I'll try to answer it without looking anythng up, or I'll tell you I'd have to research it and where I would go to do it. Make it something you would actually ask in an interview.

Gave me an idea. I think I'm going to suggest mock interviews for one of our user group meetings. I would quite enjoy an impartial review of my skills to see if they are up to snuff and I'm actually thinking that would be quite a bit of fun. Now just to figure out how to do it without wasting time for those waiting. Maybe a signup and you come 20 minutes early to the meeting... Hmmmm....

Chad

SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 4

Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/26/2010)
WayneS (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
At this point, I'm ending this conversation. Let this thread get back on topic, which is The Missing Certification.
I am more than willing to discuss what would be a good solution to filling the gap between the MCITP and MCM.
I think there should be an MCJ (Journeyman). The MCITP can stay as is, but the Journeyman would be a good filler.
Okay, sounds like a good starting point.
Now, let's starting putting together the requirements.
I'll start by saying that there needs to be documented experience with the product in business environment (this could also be government, non-profit, etc.). Question here, how much? One year, two years, more?
One year isn't enough; three years is probably too much. Two sounds like a good middle to me.
Now, how would one go about getting documented experience? I think figuring this out will be the biggest hurdle...
I know people with more than 5 years experience where if good knowledge of T-SQL and SQL were gasoline, they wouldn't have enough to run a sugar ant's mini-bike through a match box. I also know a couple of newbie go-getters with no production experience that would make some of the MCITP's I've seen blush with embarassment.
Time in service means absolutely nothing.
Jeff,
I agree with you that time in service doesn't necessarily mean a thing, 10 years could mean 10 years experience or 1 years experience 10 times. What I believe we are trying to establish for the propsed MCJ is that you have to be working in the career field. Anyone, even a janitor, could go out and get an MCITP, but for the MCJ we want you to have been working in the field. There needs to be more to show you know the technical side, whether learned on the job doing it or in a lab tyoe environment. The idea is to put together something that hiring managers such as yourself would know that this person is technically competent, may not be where you are, but understands the technology and can perform at an acceptable level.
Absolutely understood. But, even then, the only way I know that "this person is technically competent" is to find out myself during an interview with that person. Perhaps I'm an oddity but even if MCJ came to reality, I would still grill interviewees in the areas I need them to be competent in because I trust in no system of the measurement of knowledge or ability for two reasons...

I would fully expect each candidate to be fully grilled by you, myself, or any other perspective employer.

Another piece of the MCJ would be a peer review. Of course that would mean we would need to have competent peers doing the reviews.

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events

SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 5

Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
I will say this now and I will say this later, the day I stop learning is the day you can bury me.
So, to all you guru's out there (Jeff, Gail, Grant, Gus, Jack, Jason, Paul, Dave, Barry, Alvin, Bob, etc), keep me on my toes and don't stop helping me get better.
SSC is a great place to learn and is full of individuals willing to help others get better. I hope I can keep up with all of you.

I would like to replicate that sentiment. Learning is key. I have to keep learning or the skills become stagnant.

I will help you where I can. And, I hope you will replicate that for me.

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events

dma-669038 SSCrazy Points: 2773 More actions · Answer 6

Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
dma-669038 (3/27/2010)
<<What I find sorely lacking in most resumes is a list of significant accomplishments. I want to know "what have you done in the time you've had and what can you do if I give you some time"? >>
Jeff, how do you think this gap can be bridged, other than the person writing a better resume that is? Or do you think all experience just means nothing more than what the person appears to be in that one hour or however long the interview process takes?
It's an odd gap in some cases. I interviewed one guy for a "hybrid" developer position who claimed more than 10 years experience in both Oracle and SQL Server. He also claimed to be a "9 out of 10" in both right on his resume. I always start out at the bottom of the question pile with folks kind of like someone does while operating a lie-detector machine. I know folks are usually nervous to one level or another when they interview so I talk with them first and then start with some easy questions just to get them used to the idea of being asked questions. Now, remembering that he claimed 10 years of experience in both SQL Server and Oracle as well as being a "9 out of 10" in both, what do you think I did when he couldn't tell me which functions (just wanted 1 for Oracle and 1 for SQL Server) to use to get the current date and time? Heh... it was supposed to be a bloody "ice breaker" question! After not being able to answer 4 more "starter" questions of similar scope, would you say I was wrong in summarily dismissing his claims of experience and the fact the he had a Masters Degree in CIS?
The gap you speak of is easily bridged by the kind of people that I look for whether they have real experience or not. There's no magic to bridging the so called gap and I don't ask trick questions in the interviews. The closest thing I ask to a trick question is that I'll find out someone's weak spot and ask them a question or two about it. They'll usually get one question wrong because it IS their weak spot. This does two things... it shows me how they deal with things they may not be comfortable with and, when I show them the correct answer, it also shows me what their attitude and ability to learn new things is.
Or do you think all experience just means nothing more than what the person appears to be in that one hour or however long the interview process takes?
Ok, so let me turn this around on you a bit. Considering all of the experience that one fellow had on his resume and the fact that he had a Masters Degree in CIS, would YOU have still hired him based on his supposed "experience" and/or pedigree? Of course you wouldn’t and that’s precisely what I’m talking about.
And, yeah... one hour is more than enough to ascertain the truth about one's “experience” and a whole lot more.
I’m not trying to be argumentative here. I’m trying to warn good folks that even something as well conceived as the proposed MCJ won’t prevent posers, liars, and ring knockers from pulling the wool over some good folks eyes that know they need a good DBA but don’t know what questions to ask. There’s an easy way around that little problem. Talk with your business buddies that do have a DBA. With their permission, offer to pay that DBA for the time he/she spends interviewing people for you after hours. Just because someone has the proposed MCJ shouldn’t be the only reason to hire someone.

Absolutely, agree with every word you say, thanks.

dma-669038 SSCrazy Points: 2773 More actions · Answer 7

Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
I do have an MA and BS degree, but haven't had the time to get an MS certs as yet, so curious Jeff, where would I fall in your book based on this and what you have seen here on SSC?
Heh... you should know better than to ask such a question unless you're in an interview. 😛 You know where you stand from the comments I made associated with an article you wrote. Like I said, certs and degrees mean nothing to me... ability does and you might want to go back to that fine article and see what I'm talking about. 😉
Sort of why I put you on the spot. I'll have to look at several of my articles to know for sure which one you are talking about (I'm sure it wasn't my first one).
I am always curious why some companies seem to have problems with their databases going corrupt and such. I can understand hardware problems occuring once in a while and corrupting a database, but it seems like some of these things happen with regularity at some companies. It doesn't make sense. I feel that I have been quite lucky over the last 12+ years that the systems I have been responsible for have been quite stable and reliable (with a single exception, but it never corrupted the database, and once we moved to a new server that problem went away -- turned out to be a bad motherboard in the server and the sys admins kept blaming SQL Server).
I will say this now and I will say this later, the day I stop learning is the day you can bury me.
So, to all you guru's out there (Jeff, Gail, Grant, Gus, Jack, Jason, Paul, Dave, Barry, Alvin, Bob, etc), keep me on my toes and don't stop helping me get better.
SSC is a great place to learn and is full of individuals willing to help others get better. I hope I can keep up with all of you.
My turn to put you on the spot... would you say that you're less valuable to your employer or a future employer in the area of T-SQL because you're not certified? I'm not talking about being a System's DBA here. Does not being certified make you less valueable?

Personally, no. I think i need some kind of certification for two reasons -

1 Majority employers seek certification -and in my experience that has little in common with the organisational culture or how great the place is to work in. It is just some rule somebody made and they still have it. I'd rather get it over with to get in than fight their norms as it lowers the number of places i can go to for a job.

2 I am all for being 'grilled' on the subject the problem i have though is this, with largely expanding features sql has it is very rare an individual would fit in like a glove - my company needs basic SQL dba skills, Clustering, Transactional Replication, SSIS and SSRS. Another company needs Mirroring, Merge Replication, SSAS and something.... How in the world would i pass a grilling test on the latter? Atleast certs give me an overview of various replication methodologies and i can say i did this kind of replication so the other one may not be that hard and i know the concept behind it. And really that is all it really is. But you can lose a great candidate to being picky on specific areas like that and it is happening increasingly, unfortunately.

Perhaps MCJ can also come up with a checklist of technologies and what the candidate can do, can do with some learning and not do at all, just a thought.

Gift Peddie SSC Guru Points: 73570 More actions · Answer 8

Jeff Moden (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
There are a lot of technical experts even in this site who will not pass the MCM because of their differences with Microsoft implementation.
I would definitely be one of those. I probably couldn't pass the Developer's exam without some serious study. MS and I have a whole different way of doing things especially according to their MS Press books.
As a serious side bar, I just picked up the 2k8 Database Development Training Kit book for the 70-433 exam. I'm seriously thinking about getting my money back... from what I've read in the first chapter, it's one of the worst books on the subject of SQL Server and T-SQL I've ever read.

Hi Jeff,

There are reasons you are not part of the PASS leadership which I know from experience to be not inclusive because Microsoft salesmen run large chapters and appoints the unqualified. I had to start my own group so I don't waste my time attending. The credential being academically discussed may cost Microsoft at least one hundred million dollars in sales because Buick employees may not qualify so is 75 percent of Indiana SQL Server users. Those are just first glance and IBM just launched twenty five dollars a month web version of Cognos, there is no alternative in the Microsoft product stack because Microsoft built SharePoint about two years or more after IBM put together what is now WebSphere.

Why Plutocracy within SQL Server, the cost of letting the not necessarily skilled run large engineering departments. The unskilled Plutocracy talked to their appointed outside Plutocrats ignoring ideas from the skilled within Microsoft and outside the result was PerformancePoint . BI stack is missing 60 percent needed engineering. When PerformancePoint was depreciated pun intended I read a blog comment from a Microsoft employee that read like I posted it.

Kind regards,
Gift Peddie

Michael Meierruth SSChampion Points: 10051 More actions · Answer 9

Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
If you did not see it I left out condescending. Now have a nice day.

Gift Peddie,

Above is the last thing you said.

I have read this post with great curiosity and I have dedicated most of this Sunday morning to it.

In particular, I'm intrigued by your use of often perfect English and your use of English which, at times, needs a considerable amount of imagination to comprehend and, at times, is truly incromprehensible.

And I would not exagerate to say that, at times, I thought your responses were from a computer.

Your name is intriguing in itself.

Would you care to introduce yourself on the recently opened 'Where are you' blog?

I'm curious as hell!

Gift Peddie SSC Guru Points: 73570 More actions · Answer 10

Where are you' blog?
I'm curious as hell!

I would not but to all who wants to know I was born in a war zone, that is all I care to share.

Kind regards,
Gift Peddie

Gift Peddie SSC Guru Points: 73570 More actions · Answer 11

In particular, I'm intrigued by your use of often perfect English and your use of English which, at times, needs a considerable amount of imagination to comprehend and, at times, is truly incromprehensible.
And I would not exagerate to say that, at times, I thought your responses were from a computer.
Your name is intriguing in itself.

This is the worst but these only come up when issues are challenged not when I offer solutions to many users. I am the only none Microsoft female admin of both TechNet and MSDN forums my users are always happy.

Kind regards,
Gift Peddie

dma-669038 SSCrazy Points: 2773 More actions · Answer 12

There are reasons you are not part of the PASS leadership which I know from experience to be not inclusive because Microsoft salesmen run large chapters and appoints the unqualified.<<

The name Gift Peddie has a LinkedIN profile with certifications a mile long and an MVP on .NET.

The random comments as above with no relevance to the topic being discussed and again taking down Microsoft look somewhat unbecoming of an MVP.

Just fyi Gift it is complete nonsense that Microsoft salesmen are running any PASS chapters or appointing any chapter leaders either. I think Steve has to step in to stop your tirade and let us discuss the subject relevant to the thread.

Gift Peddie SSC Guru Points: 73570 More actions · Answer 13

dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
There are reasons you are not part of the PASS leadership which I know from experience to be not inclusive because Microsoft salesmen run large chapters and appoints the unqualified.<<
The name Gift Peddie has a LinkedIN profile with certifications a mile long and an MVP on .NET.
The random comments as above with no relevance to the topic being discussed and again taking down Microsoft look somewhat unbecoming of an MVP.
Just fyi Gift it is complete nonsense that Microsoft salesmen are running any PASS chapters or appointing any chapter leaders either. I think Steve has to step in to stop your tirade and let us discuss the subject relevant to the thread.

I apologize if you think it is a tirade but the Houston chapter was run by Microsoft sales department. I stopped attending in 2005. Please explain the lack of relevance if PASS is not inclusive and it will decide who is qualified to be MCJ.

Kind regards,
Gift Peddie

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 14

Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
There are reasons you are not part of the PASS leadership which I know from experience to be not inclusive because Microsoft salesmen run large chapters and appoints the unqualified.<<
The name Gift Peddie has a LinkedIN profile with certifications a mile long and an MVP on .NET.
The random comments as above with no relevance to the topic being discussed and again taking down Microsoft look somewhat unbecoming of an MVP.
Just fyi Gift it is complete nonsense that Microsoft salesmen are running any PASS chapters or appointing any chapter leaders either. I think Steve has to step in to stop your tirade and let us discuss the subject relevant to the thread.
I apologize if you think it is a tirade but the Houston chapter was run by Microsoft sales department. I stopped attending in 2005. Please explain the lack of relevance if PASS is not inclusive and it will decide who is qualified to be MCJ.

Unfortunately, it is a tirade. You have offered nothing of substance to this discussion except to say it won't work. Where have you offered any positive comments or suggestions regarding the proposed MCJ? The answer is simple, you haven't.

As for the Houston Users Group being run by the Microsoft Sales Department, perhaps, but many of the SQL Server Users Groups that I have seen have been started and run by volunteers that are NOT paid by Microsoft and have found sponsers that are NOT Microsoft.

Now, I think at this point you have a choice, you can either contribrute to the discussion in a positive manner or simple sit back and watch. Many of us are tired of the constant negative comments sans positive suggestions and the bashing of Microsoft. Microsoft isn't perfect and Microsoft isn't the one brainstorming a certification between MCITP and MCM, we are, members of the SQL Server Community on SSC.

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 15

Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
There are reasons you are not part of the PASS leadership which I know from experience to be not inclusive because Microsoft salesmen run large chapters and appoints the unqualified.<<
The name Gift Peddie has a LinkedIN profile with certifications a mile long and an MVP on .NET.
The random comments as above with no relevance to the topic being discussed and again taking down Microsoft look somewhat unbecoming of an MVP.
Just fyi Gift it is complete nonsense that Microsoft salesmen are running any PASS chapters or appointing any chapter leaders either. I think Steve has to step in to stop your tirade and let us discuss the subject relevant to the thread.
I apologize if you think it is a tirade but the Houston chapter was run by Microsoft sales department. I stopped attending in 2005. Please explain the lack of relevance if PASS is not inclusive and it will decide who is qualified to be MCJ.

And FYI, no one here has said PASS would decide who would be qualified to be an MCJ, it was a suggestion as to how it might be done.

NOTHING here is final in any way. It is a discussion, and time for us as members of the SQL Server Community to brainstorm.