March 27, 2010 at 12:06 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
Even if somebody was a SQL stud with no experience, requiring them to be in the field for a couple of years prior to certifying them still brings greater validity to that cert
That's were I strongly disagree with most folks. If someone is a natural at something or has studied/practiced privately to the point where they can blow the doors off of their peers' abilities, why should someone be punished by "doing time"?
Adding time in service to a cert brings no more validity to the cert. Neither does supposed knowledge. Only ability does which, of course, has a foundation in knowledge but means nothing if you don't have the ability to apply that knowledge.
The bottom line is if you hire someone who is certified, is it an indication that they have the ability to get the job done? Right now, the answer isn't always "yes" and, unfortunately, the answer is more frequently "no".
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 27, 2010 at 12:16 pm
dma-669038 (3/27/2010)
Certifications and other titles help the outside world understand what your experience is about not substitutes for experience.
Heh... I have to agree that most folks use certifications and titles as a filter. My old boss used to do the same thing. He couldn't understand why he was constantly being disappointed by most folks he hired on that basis. He forgot the part about titles not being substitutes for ability. Notice I didn't use the word "experience" there.
A properly written resume and the ability to survive a technically intense interview goes much further with me. I've hired several "unexperienced" folks instead of their supposedly more experienced counterparts simply because of "abilities" that were and were not demonstrated during the interview. And, no, I didn't start them out at "entry level" pay, either.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 27, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
Even if somebody was a SQL stud with no experience, requiring them to be in the field for a couple of years prior to certifying them still brings greater validity to that certThat's were I strongly disagree with most folks. If someone is a natural at something or has studied/practiced privately to the point where they can blow the doors off of their peers' abilities, why should someone be punished by "doing time"?
Adding time in service to a cert brings no more validity to the cert. Neither does supposed knowledge. Only ability does which, of course, has a foundation in knowledge but means nothing if you don't have the ability to apply that knowledge.
The bottom line is if you hire someone who is certified, is it an indication that they have the ability to get the job done? Right now, the answer isn't always "yes" and, unfortunately, the answer is more frequently "no".
I don't consider it beng punished by doing time. This person may have studied/practiced privately or be a natural at it. The idea of being in the field for a period of time means that the person has had time to apply that knowledge and gain experience. With experience, hopefully, comes wisdom and the ability to understand how things may change. What may work in one environment may not be appropriate in another. To take from an article on Simple Talk, to know what to do when a call comes in and shutdown a log shipping process to prevent further problems is from experience, not knowledge.
March 27, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/26/2010)
WayneS (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
At this point, I'm ending this conversation. Let this thread get back on topic, which is The Missing Certification.I am more than willing to discuss what would be a good solution to filling the gap between the MCITP and MCM.
I think there should be an MCJ (Journeyman). The MCITP can stay as is, but the Journeyman would be a good filler.
Okay, sounds like a good starting point.
Now, let's starting putting together the requirements.
I'll start by saying that there needs to be documented experience with the product in business environment (this could also be government, non-profit, etc.). Question here, how much? One year, two years, more?
One year isn't enough; three years is probably too much. Two sounds like a good middle to me.
Now, how would one go about getting documented experience? I think figuring this out will be the biggest hurdle...
I know people with more than 5 years experience where if good knowledge of T-SQL and SQL were gasoline, they wouldn't have enough to run a sugar ant's mini-bike through a match box. I also know a couple of newbie go-getters with no production experience that would make some of the MCITP's I've seen blush with embarassment.
Time in service means absolutely nothing.
Jeff,
I agree with you that time in service doesn't necessarily mean a thing, 10 years could mean 10 years experience or 1 years experience 10 times. What I believe we are trying to establish for the propsed MCJ is that you have to be working in the career field. Anyone, even a janitor, could go out and get an MCITP, but for the MCJ we want you to have been working in the field. There needs to be more to show you know the technical side, whether learned on the job doing it or in a lab tyoe environment. The idea is to put together something that hiring managers such as yourself would know that this person is technically competent, may not be where you are, but understands the technology and can perform at an acceptable level.
Absolutely understood. But, even then, the only way I know that "this person is technically competent" is to find out myself during an interview with that person. Perhaps I'm an oddity but even if MCJ came to reality, I would still grill interviewees in the areas I need them to be competent in because I trust in no system of the measurement of knowledge or ability for two reasons... I know people who couldn't pass a test to save their life but have inate abilities that all should envy and I know people with PHDs in Mathematics that can't do simple numbering system conversions in their head.
Heh... and what "knowledge" would the MCJ be based on? "Happy employers?" What do they know about SQL Server? Usually... nothing (which is, ironically, the reason people are proposing MCJ to begin with) which also means that they're really not equipped to advise me through an MCJ grading system as to whether someone is actually skilled in the art or not. Further, have you ever seen a Microsoft exam with questions on it that require the use of what the "Ninjas" on this forum consider to be "everyday" tools such as a Tally table, a cteTally, or ask how to solve a running total or explain how to apply the left and right "Bowers" of a Nested Set Hierarchy or even what the most effective method for reducing unknown numbers of multiple adjacent spaces to a single space is? In fact, they don't even ask how to strip the time from a date.
Certs, degrees, and supposed "experience" mean nothing to me especially when I'm hiring. A nicely formatted resume with reasonable use of the English language and without spelling errors and some good indication of what you can do with SQL Server will get you in the door. I don't even need to look at the job history. The interview will do the rest. Even if if a person has a half dozen certs and a couple of degrees, if (s)he can't convince me that (s)he actually has the ability, work ethic, and attention to detail I'm looking for, they're not going to get the job... even if they have an MCJ in the future.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 27, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Jeff, am glad you give us some room to believe that you are a little exceptional (i am not using oddity since your hiring strategy sounds rather appealing to me :)). There are many companies out there where the only person or persons who know about databases are the DBA(s). The person who is hiring knows only the pragmatic side of the picture - you have to keep the servers up, you have to be available off hours , data has to be recoverable in x time, this is the affordable downtime, when queries dont perform normally you have to help out and so on. Certification provides a means for such people to limit whom they are interviewing - at least. There is no guarantee the person will be a good fit for the position but then again that is rarely a technical thing. I can recall atleast 3-4 instances in my own career where DBAs/programmers had top notch technical skills and were complete misfits into the organisational culture. A person who has 'brain dumped' his way into certs or does not use any knowledge he/she gained is also a similar misfit and is likely not going to last at his job.
Lastly, do you give any credibility to people learning on the job? I have faced two interviews where the person interviewing me did and were not disappointed. Where I work they use clustering very extensively. My boss asked me a few questions on clustering - I knew what it was from reading up and from certs, but i had not used the technology and was honest about it. He said he was impressed by what i knew otherwise and believed i could learn the technology. I did. I have hired 3-4 people myself later who did not know parts of what we were looking for but showed ability and willingness to learn. Of course I did want them to know what was clustering at a basic level and what were alternatives to it. I believe certs helped me and them. It is very possible a well read uncertified person would also know or possess similar knowledge. But then am just trying to say it wasn't as useless as we deem it to be. Hope that makes some sense.
March 27, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
dma-669038 (3/26/2010)
Luke's idea sounds pretty appealing and by the way the Microsoft Certified Trainer program does have this going, a video of presentation/teaching session at a third party trainer location. My only hassle with that is that not all sql experts are good trainers/presenters, granted that is a very popular path to go but there are lot of 'quiet experts' out there too plus a lot of very savvy preseters who are not as great as they seem to be. Presenting expertise does not have to add up to technical expertise.True, but the idea here isn't necessarily to make people presenters, but to see how well they know the technical material. In my opinion, the presentation at the users group shouldn't be graded on how well the presenter did, but on the technical merits of the information in the presentation itself. As there should be a discussion after, was the individual able to answer technical questions that filled in the gaps during the presentation. there could be more here, but I'm shooting from the hip a bit here.
I'm not so sure about that. If we are senior database people, some of our merit is supposed to be our communication skills. Thus, there should be some percentage of the reviews that grade how well you presented your material. It should not be too high but at least some percentage.
Okay, I agree, but what I am looking at here is that some people may downgrade an individuals technical knowledge simply because of poor presentation skills. I can see a balance between the two, perhaps similar to ice skating where there are two scores, one technical and one for presentation.
A person may need to work more on the presentation side, but being a MCJ, that is something that could be worked on over time, perhaps as part of a recertification process as well.
Communication does not have to do with presentations necessarily, communication has a number of other channels such as talking in person, email, blogging etc. Technical Presentations to my mind have three elements - they are done best by someone who has a fluent local accent(unless you are technical genius like Itzik Ben Gan), can think well on their feet and enjoy the process of talking to an audience. There are many among us who don't fit those criteria. And many who are totally comfortable with a 'home' audience such as at work where they have a chance to interact and explain on their terms to an audience of known people. In short I believe it is fine to do an MCT kind of video for basic presentation skills to gauge their effectiveness but to expect the person to be a top notch speaker as a gauge for their technical skills to my mind is unfair and in effect dismissing a lot of people.
March 27, 2010 at 3:06 pm
To be sure, I'm not against certs, degrees, and other supposed tally marks of education. When done correctly, they are well deserved.
The problem is that so many do them (certs, degrees, etc) incorrectly and one must be guarded against hiring based on how many such "iron-on stripes" a person wears on their sleeve.
To answer the other question, one of the things I do "test" for in an interview is both the ability and willingness to learn new things.
On the experience thing (again), "It depends". If I'm trying to hire a "System's DBA", then by all means, experience helps. But it depends on the type of experience. Simply having been employed as a DBA for 15 years means nothing to me. Instead, I want to know what you have done in those 15 years. If you've solved no crisis in all that time, then your experience may be worth nothing for what I need you for. On the other hand, if you have only six months experience and saved a server or two from "certain death", then you may be just the person I'm looking for... heh... provided that you weren't the cause of the "certain death" problems. 😛 In the later case of only having worked for 6 months and having solved a major crisis or two, I believe it would be a shame to make someone wait for 3 years to earn "sewn-on stripes".
Like I said previously... I don't normally dwell on a person's work history in the resume. What I find sorely lacking in most resumes is a list of significant accomplishments. I want to know "what have you done in the time you've had and what can you do if I give you some time"?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 27, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Yes, that is why I believe the PMP strategy of documenting projects helps...if you have a template and can clearly state the methodology, duration and so on the person reading it gets an idea of what it took. Personally i have seen a lot of exaggerated resumes, particularly when people want to make the transition from a one shop DBA to a bigger enterprise level position. I managed 3000+ databases makes very little sense without the background, on how many servers were they spread across, what was the biggest one and what were some of the challenges and how you resolved them. It is not always than a prospective employer can dig into this information (time constraints) and lot of candidates do lie liberally. Having documented information particulary with the company signing off helps a huge degree to gauge what kind of projects an individual worked on and some idea of expertise. Again any of this can be misused or falsified, that is hardly the point.
March 27, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
To be sure, I'm not against certs, degrees, and other supposed tally marks of education. When done correctly, they are well deserved.The problem is that so many do them (certs, degrees, etc) incorrectly and one must be guarded against hiring based on how many such "iron-on stripes" a person wears on their sleeve.
To answer the other question, one of the things I do "test" for in an interview is both the ability and willingness to learn new things.
On the experience thing (again), "It depends". If I'm trying to hire a "System's DBA", then by all means, experience helps. But it depends on the type of experience. Simply having been employed as a DBA for 15 years means nothing to me. Instead, I want to know what you have done in those 15 years. If you've solved no crisis in all that time, then your experience may be worth nothing for what I need you for. On the other hand, if you have only six months experience and saved a server or two from "certain death", then you may be just the person I'm looking for... heh... provided that you weren't the cause of the "certain death" problems. 😛 In the later case of only having worked for 6 months and having solved a major crisis or two, I believe it would be a shame to make someone wait for 3 years to earn "sewn-on stripes".
Like I said previously... I don't normally dwell on a person's work history in the resume. What I find sorely lacking in most resumes is a list of significant accomplishments. I want to know "what have you done in the time you've had and what can you do if I give you some time"?
I guess I may fall more in the area of not having to save a server or two from certain death. I have been lucky, I haven't had to face many of the problems we have read about in the forums here on SSC. I haven't had to deal with corrupt production databases or dropped user tables in production by developers, not having backups of production databases, etc. I have had the occasional failed service pack install, and performance issues after an upgrade (no problems appeared during the testing by the way), and a few issues that were actually not SQL related at all.
I do have an MA and BS degree, but haven't had the time to get an MS certs as yet, so curious Jeff, where would I fall in your book based on this and what you have seen here on SSC?
March 27, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Also want to add - you can be technically over qualified for many positions. You can give answers to everything ask right off the bat and yet not be accepted becuase most employers do know the limitations of their environment - and most likely not use the full potential. Even the time you take to answer means something to an employer and it is possible to appear too smart for the position with no intention to be. In short someone grilled technically who passes the test does not guarantee the best fit for the job, at all. It does come close in many situations but does have its limitations too.
March 27, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
I do have an MA and BS degree, but haven't had the time to get an MS certs as yet, so curious Jeff, where would I fall in your book based on this and what you have seen here on SSC?
Heh... you should know better than to ask such a question unless you're in an interview. 😛 You know where you stand from the comments I made associated with an article you wrote. Like I said, certs and degrees mean nothing to me... ability does and you might want to go back to that fine article and see what I'm talking about. 😉
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 27, 2010 at 7:09 pm
<<What I find sorely lacking in most resumes is a list of significant accomplishments. I want to know "what have you done in the time you've had and what can you do if I give you some time"? >>
Jeff, how do you think this gap can be bridged, other than the person writing a better resume that is? Or do you think all experience just means nothing more than what the person appears to be in that one hour or however long the interview process takes?
March 27, 2010 at 7:26 pm
Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
I do have an MA and BS degree, but haven't had the time to get an MS certs as yet, so curious Jeff, where would I fall in your book based on this and what you have seen here on SSC?Heh... you should know better than to ask such a question unless you're in an interview. 😛 You know where you stand from the comments I made associated with an article you wrote. Like I said, certs and degrees mean nothing to me... ability does and you might want to go back to that fine article and see what I'm talking about. 😉
Sort of why I put you on the spot. I'll have to look at several of my articles to know for sure which one you are talking about (I'm sure it wasn't my first one).
I am always curious why some companies seem to have problems with their databases going corrupt and such. I can understand hardware problems occuring once in a while and corrupting a database, but it seems like some of these things happen with regularity at some companies. It doesn't make sense. I feel that I have been quite lucky over the last 12+ years that the systems I have been responsible for have been quite stable and reliable (with a single exception, but it never corrupted the database, and once we moved to a new server that problem went away -- turned out to be a bad motherboard in the server and the sys admins kept blaming SQL Server).
I will say this now and I will say this later, the day I stop learning is the day you can bury me.
So, to all you guru's out there (Jeff, Gail, Grant, Gus, Jack, Jason, Paul, Dave, Barry, Alvin, Bob, etc), keep me on my toes and don't stop helping me get better.
SSC is a great place to learn and is full of individuals willing to help others get better. I hope I can keep up with all of you.
March 27, 2010 at 8:32 pm
dma-669038 (3/27/2010)
<<What I find sorely lacking in most resumes is a list of significant accomplishments. I want to know "what have you done in the time you've had and what can you do if I give you some time"? >>Jeff, how do you think this gap can be bridged, other than the person writing a better resume that is? Or do you think all experience just means nothing more than what the person appears to be in that one hour or however long the interview process takes?
It's an odd gap in some cases. I interviewed one guy for a "hybrid" developer position who claimed more than 10 years experience in both Oracle and SQL Server. He also claimed to be a "9 out of 10" in both right on his resume. I always start out at the bottom of the question pile with folks kind of like someone does while operating a lie-detector machine. I know folks are usually nervous to one level or another when they interview so I talk with them first and then start with some easy questions just to get them used to the idea of being asked questions. Now, remembering that he claimed 10 years of experience in both SQL Server and Oracle as well as being a "9 out of 10" in both, what do you think I did when he couldn't tell me which functions (just wanted 1 for Oracle and 1 for SQL Server) to use to get the current date and time? Heh... it was supposed to be a bloody "ice breaker" question! After not being able to answer 4 more "starter" questions of similar scope, would you say I was wrong in summarily dismissing his claims of experience and the fact the he had a Masters Degree in CIS?
The gap you speak of is easily bridged by the kind of people that I look for whether they have real experience or not. There's no magic to bridging the so called gap and I don't ask trick questions in the interviews. The closest thing I ask to a trick question is that I'll find out someone's weak spot and ask them a question or two about it. They'll usually get one question wrong because it IS their weak spot. This does two things... it shows me how they deal with things they may not be comfortable with and, when I show them the correct answer, it also shows me what their attitude and ability to learn new things is.
Or do you think all experience just means nothing more than what the person appears to be in that one hour or however long the interview process takes?
Ok, so let me turn this around on you a bit. Considering all of the experience that one fellow had on his resume and the fact that he had a Masters Degree in CIS, would YOU have still hired him based on his supposed "experience" and/or pedigree? Of course you wouldn’t and that’s precisely what I’m talking about.
And, yeah... one hour is more than enough to ascertain the truth about one's “experience” and a whole lot more.
I’m not trying to be argumentative here. I’m trying to warn good folks that even something as well conceived as the proposed MCJ won’t prevent posers, liars, and ring knockers from pulling the wool over some good folks eyes that know they need a good DBA but don’t know what questions to ask. There’s an easy way around that little problem. Talk with your business buddies that do have a DBA. With their permission, offer to pay that DBA for the time he/she spends interviewing people for you after hours. Just because someone has the proposed MCJ shouldn’t be the only reason to hire someone.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 27, 2010 at 8:39 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/27/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/27/2010)
I do have an MA and BS degree, but haven't had the time to get an MS certs as yet, so curious Jeff, where would I fall in your book based on this and what you have seen here on SSC?Heh... you should know better than to ask such a question unless you're in an interview. 😛 You know where you stand from the comments I made associated with an article you wrote. Like I said, certs and degrees mean nothing to me... ability does and you might want to go back to that fine article and see what I'm talking about. 😉
Sort of why I put you on the spot. I'll have to look at several of my articles to know for sure which one you are talking about (I'm sure it wasn't my first one).
I am always curious why some companies seem to have problems with their databases going corrupt and such. I can understand hardware problems occuring once in a while and corrupting a database, but it seems like some of these things happen with regularity at some companies. It doesn't make sense. I feel that I have been quite lucky over the last 12+ years that the systems I have been responsible for have been quite stable and reliable (with a single exception, but it never corrupted the database, and once we moved to a new server that problem went away -- turned out to be a bad motherboard in the server and the sys admins kept blaming SQL Server).
I will say this now and I will say this later, the day I stop learning is the day you can bury me.
So, to all you guru's out there (Jeff, Gail, Grant, Gus, Jack, Jason, Paul, Dave, Barry, Alvin, Bob, etc), keep me on my toes and don't stop helping me get better.
SSC is a great place to learn and is full of individuals willing to help others get better. I hope I can keep up with all of you.
My turn to put you on the spot... would you say that you're less valuable to your employer or a future employer in the area of T-SQL because you're not certified? I'm not talking about being a System's DBA here. Does not being certified make you less valueable?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
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