The Missing Certification

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The Missing Certification

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Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 1

dma-669038 (3/26/2010)
Luke's idea sounds pretty appealing and by the way the Microsoft Certified Trainer program does have this going, a video of presentation/teaching session at a third party trainer location. My only hassle with that is that not all sql experts are good trainers/presenters, granted that is a very popular path to go but there are lot of 'quiet experts' out there too plus a lot of very savvy preseters who are not as great as they seem to be. Presenting expertise does not have to add up to technical expertise.

True, but the idea here isn't necessarily to make people presenters, but to see how well they know the technical material. In my opinion, the presentation at the users group shouldn't be graded on how well the presenter did, but on the technical merits of the information in the presentation itself. As there should be a discussion after, was the individual able to answer technical questions that filled in the gaps during the presentation. there could be more here, but I'm shooting from the hip a bit here.

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 2

Let see if I can consolidate some of the ideas for the MCJ.

1) Current MCITP

2) Experience, at least 2 years.

3) Technical presentation of a project. Could be done at a users group meeting. Should be real world, but could it be a project provided by the certifying authority?

4) Some kind of technical knowledge test? Simulation based perhaps?

5) Other ideas?? -- come on, I'm sure others have some suggestions.

Edit:

The bottom line is to see if we as a community could come up with something that might be used to provide a certification that when looked at by hiring managers that actually provides some level of confidence in the technical knowledge and abilities of a prospective hire.

WayneS SSC Guru Points: 95460 More actions · Answer 3

The Dixie Flatline (3/26/2010)
I sometimes wonder if there is a role for PASS in certifying people as having a specific level of expertise, not experience. It doesn't matter if they get it from work experience, a self-study course, or a school. The point is whether or not they know what needs to be done and how to go about doing it. The problem is that too many small businesses or other organizations have to hire people when they have no one already in-house equipped to judge the applicant's qualifications.

I think the experience goes along with the "how to go about doing it". You might have the knowledge, but just not know how to implement it, until you actually see it / need it. As an example (and I admit that this is diving deep here), most of us know about the CROSS APPLY operator. If you're like me, you have a somewhat limited knowledge of how it works, and when it can benefit you to use it, so you study all of Paul's scripts that use it in trying to get a deeper understanding of it all. (All the while waiting patiently for his article to be written about it...) The point here is that it's not until you do some things that you know "how to go about doing it".... and that comes only with experience... trying it out for yourself and seeing the results firsthand.

Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes

If you can't explain to another person how the code that you're copying from the internet works, then DON'T USE IT on a production system! After all, you will be the one supporting it!

Links:
For better assistance in answering your questions
Performance Problems
Common date/time routines
Understanding and Using APPLY Part 1 & Part 2

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1004356 More actions · Answer 4

Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
There are a lot of technical experts even in this site who will not pass the MCM because of their differences with Microsoft implementation.

I would definitely be one of those. I probably couldn't pass the Developer's exam without some serious study. MS and I have a whole different way of doing things especially according to their MS Press books.

As a serious side bar, I just picked up the 2k8 Database Development Training Kit book for the 70-433 exam. I'm seriously thinking about getting my money back... from what I've read in the first chapter, it's one of the worst books on the subject of SQL Server and T-SQL I've ever read.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1004356 More actions · Answer 5

WayneS (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
At this point, I'm ending this conversation. Let this thread get back on topic, which is The Missing Certification.
I am more than willing to discuss what would be a good solution to filling the gap between the MCITP and MCM.
I think there should be an MCJ (Journeyman). The MCITP can stay as is, but the Journeyman would be a good filler.
Okay, sounds like a good starting point.
Now, let's starting putting together the requirements.
I'll start by saying that there needs to be documented experience with the product in business environment (this could also be government, non-profit, etc.). Question here, how much? One year, two years, more?
One year isn't enough; three years is probably too much. Two sounds like a good middle to me.
Now, how would one go about getting documented experience? I think figuring this out will be the biggest hurdle...

I know people with more than 5 years experience where if good knowledge of T-SQL and SQL were gasoline, they wouldn't have enough to run a sugar ant's mini-bike through a match box. I also know a couple of newbie go-getters with no production experience that would make some of the MCITP's I've seen blush with embarassment.

Time in service means absolutely nothing.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1004356 More actions · Answer 6

Nadrek (3/26/2010)
WayneS (3/26/2010)
One year isn't enough; three years is probably too much. Two sounds like a good middle to me.
Now, how would one go about getting documented experience? I think figuring this out will be the biggest hurdle...
Look into how the PMP certification handles their hours of experience requirement for Project Managers; that's a substantially similar requirement to what we're talking about, already incorporated into a well regarded certification.

Heh... same goes with PMP certs and experience... I've seen many with PMP certs and years of experience and they still can't manage nor plan well enough to build a popsicle stick from a tongue depressor.

Certifications, degrees, and so-called experience mean absolutely nothing. The only thing that counts is what you can actually do and what you have actually done.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Paul White SSC Guru Points: 150467 More actions · Answer 7

WayneS (3/26/2010)
(All the while waiting patiently for his article to be written about it...)

Hey Wayne,

The two-part article was finished and submitted to Steve two weeks ago today.

I guess there's a queue for publication... :unsure:

Thanks for the plug!

Paul

Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi

SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 8

The Dixie Flatline (3/26/2010)
Peer review. For the MCJ, would this need to be a video, or could a project, including code, that could be tested in a lab environment by independent individuals be a part of the cert?
I think this should be in a lab environment, not a video. I also think that video conference calls could be a part of peer review. Do your lab and then sit down and discuss it with a small panel of people who have been there and done that.

Great Idea. A video conference could simplify the peer review process significantly. I think a peer review would be an absolute in this middle tier.