The Missing Certification

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The Missing Certification

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Peter Schott SSCrazy Eights Points: 9675 More actions · Answer 1

CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
At this point, I'm ending this conversation. Let this thread get back on topic, which is The Missing Certification.
I am more than willing to discuss what would be a good solution to filling the gap between the MCITP and MCM.
I think there should be an MCJ (Journeyman). The MCITP can stay as is, but the Journeyman would be a good filler.
Okay, sounds like a good starting point.
Now, let's starting putting together the requirements.
I'll start by saying that there needs to be documented experience with the product in business environment (this could also be government, non-profit, etc.). Question here, how much? One year, two years, more?
I believe the MCM requires 5 years experience, so let's start with 2.
To be a JourneyMan, would you need to have had somebody sign off for you to be a Journeyman (as with the trades)?

I can only imagine being an apprentice to Buck Woody or Brent Ozar. The stories you'd have to tell.... The lawsuits you'd have to dodge.... 😀

Kidding aside, I like the concept. We really do need a middle level somewhere. Not sure if there's a timeframe involved or if it would be along the lines of the Master saying that the Journeyman is now certified.

jcrawf02 SSC-Insane Points: 24198 More actions · Answer 2

dma-669038 (3/26/2010)
The limitation of being in the technical field itself is that technical knowledge is difficult to muster without real world practical experience. That is perhaps why people who do not have it resort to brain dump type of strategies to pass tests also. Real world technical experience has no subsitute whatsoever and one has to work one's way up the ladder into a good company in order to get it. I am not sure how volunteering would work in this regard. A home grown setup is fine for playing around with technology and understanding features but cannot possibly provide depth and variety of experience in the real world.

dma - please use the Quote button, confusing to tell which is your post and which is the previous poster (got that one, but that's because it was mine :-D)

What I was trying to say was not that home-grown studies could replace work experience, or usurp its value, what I was suggesting was if I don't have the ability to do what is required for journeyman at my current position, perhaps I can volunteer for a non-profit or other organization that does have that opportunity, and needs help, without having to search for another job. Didn't spell that out well in my post, sorry.

---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]

"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."

Gift Peddie SSC Guru Points: 73570 More actions · Answer 3

Gift, i never said PMP is 'related' to MCM, only it is among certifications that carry credibility. Again we can branch off into another thread if it really does or if it does in Texas versus Washington and so on.
PMP requires documenting projects you have done with managerial approval, yes you can fool your way through it to some extent but it is tough, i know people who have tried and it helps the person learning standard ways of doing projects even if it does nto help the company.

If they are not related it is not relevant to the certification being discussed.

Kind regards,
Gift Peddie

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 4

CirquedeSQLeil (3/26/2010)
dma-669038 (3/26/2010)
Some employers have no idea of what you do for them.<< Yes, exactly. It is unlikely such people are into PMP type of stuff either. In my experience with PMP it does force some accountability even to indifferent employers and i think an employer certification in addition to individual certification would definitely carry benefit.
I'll buy that. If the employer is certified, and is accountable to some regard - that could be a very worthwhile method.

Seems a bit of a tangent but one that needs to be explored. How would you certify an employer? What would their requirements be?

dma-669038 SSCrazy Points: 2773 More actions · Answer 5

What I was trying to say was not that home-grown studies could replace work experience, or usurp its value, what I was suggesting was if I don't have the ability to do what is required for journeyman at my current position, perhaps I can volunteer for a non-profit or other organization that does have that opportunity, and needs help, without having to search for another job. Didn't spell that out well in my post, sorry.[/quote-0]

J, got you, yes that would definitely help a lot of people.

Gift Peddie SSC Guru Points: 73570 More actions · Answer 6

Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
The PMP model seems a great one to emulate. Document specific projects and mandate requirements for projects and companies to be part of a technical certification plan - that perhaps goes hand in hand with roadmap for technical upgrades that they have going now. To me even certifying a company as something is good enough and if you come from there you can be expected to have certain skills. Just like coming from a company that follows PMP standards means something.
PMP is a management certification MCM is an implementation certification both are not related. The implementation managers in Microsoft are program managers. I also lived in Indy most of those requirements are just there to impress some of the reasons software engineering companies put PMP in hr.
And this applies how? Not sure what you are saying here.

So hr credential is the model to software implementation credential. You got to be kidding me.

Novell is file system SQL Server is RDBMS implementation and uses are very different. If the model was so good why is the credential dead?

Kind regards,
Gift Peddie

dma-669038 SSCrazy Points: 2773 More actions · Answer 7

Lynn, PMP requires that you follow their procedures with regards to meetings, documentation and project plan and so on. Was thinking on those lines of a technical project plan, a checklist of what was considered and what was not, why a certain feature was considered suitable and why another wasn't, what were the bugs, challengs found in product usage, what were creative solutions found and so on. Personally I can think of making binders of atleast 3 servers/projects like this. If there is a standard and approval that would account for a considerable portion of my own knowledge and experience.

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 8

Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
The PMP model seems a great one to emulate. Document specific projects and mandate requirements for projects and companies to be part of a technical certification plan - that perhaps goes hand in hand with roadmap for technical upgrades that they have going now. To me even certifying a company as something is good enough and if you come from there you can be expected to have certain skills. Just like coming from a company that follows PMP standards means something.
PMP is a management certification MCM is an implementation certification both are not related. The implementation managers in Microsoft are program managers. I also lived in Indy most of those requirements are just there to impress some of the reasons software engineering companies put PMP in hr.
And this applies how? Not sure what you are saying here.
So hr credential is the model to software implementation credential. You got to be kidding me.
Novell is file system SQL Server is RDBMS implementation and uses are very different. If the model was so good why is the credential dead?

Again, not helping. How about constructive suggestions or ideas instead of all this negativity. Going to start calling you Oddball.

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 9

dma-669038 (3/26/2010)
Lynn, PMP requires that you follow their procedures with regards to meetings, documentation and project plan and so on. Was thinking on those lines of a technical project plan, a checklist of what was considered and what was not, why a certain feature was considered suitable and why another wasn't, what were the bugs, challengs found in product usage, what were creative solutions found and so on. Personally I can think of making binders of atleast 3 servers/projects like this. If there is a standard and approval that would account for a considerable portion of my own knowledge and experience.

Care to elaborate a little more on this, it sounds good but having a little difficulty with visualizing it.

Gift Peddie SSC Guru Points: 73570 More actions · Answer 10

Again, not helping. How about constructive suggestions or ideas instead of all this negativity. Going to start calling you Oddba

I am an oddball because I am pointing out the flaws of what you are proposing, I am documenting my objection to an invalid proposal on technical grounds.

PMP is hr what does hr know about software implementation? None.

Novell is file system so that is RDBMS storage leaving 95% of SQL Server outside in comparison.

Kind regards,
Gift Peddie

dma-669038 SSCrazy Points: 2773 More actions · Answer 11

Let me try with an example. I have a project to support a datawarehouse type of requirement on one of my teams. This project requires a copy of the existing production database on anothe server with real time synchronization to the main one. The existing database is SQL Server 2005 standard. Now am given the responsiblity of finding a solution that includes a possiblity of upgrade. I am looking into

1 Replication

2 SAN replication

3 Change Trackign with data sync services

4 CDC with SSIS.

For each option i need to prepare a demo, pros and cons and costs to the management. If I had a way i could document all this and after i have chosen one, pros and cons of using it and so on it would account for a sizeable project. That would count as one of the requirements for a certification. Does that make some sense?

jcrawf02 SSC-Insane Points: 24198 More actions · Answer 12

Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)[hrI am an oddball because I am pointing out the flaws of what you are proposing, I am documenting my objection to an invalid proposal on technical grounds.
PMP is hr what does hr know about software implementation? None.
Novell is file system so that is RDBMS storage leaving 95% of SQL Server outside in comparison.

The content of the PMP or a Novell certification is not relevant, we're discussing methodology as it pertains to the gap between existing certifications and the MCM.

---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]

"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 13

Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
Again, not helping. How about constructive suggestions or ideas instead of all this negativity. Going to start calling you Oddba
I am an oddball because I am pointing out the flaws of what you are proposing, I am documenting my objection to an invalid proposal on technical grounds.
PMP is hr what does hr know about software implementation? None.
Novell is file system so that is RDBMS storage leaving 95% of SQL Server outside in comparison.

How can there be flaws when we are only looking at ideas and possibilities of how this MIGHT occur? We don't care that Novell is a file system. We are looking for things that may work, may provide triggers to other ideas.

So again, stop with the negativity already and start providing some thing constructive and positive.

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 14

Lynn Pettis (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
Again, not helping. How about constructive suggestions or ideas instead of all this negativity. Going to start calling you Oddba
I am an oddball because I am pointing out the flaws of what you are proposing, I am documenting my objection to an invalid proposal on technical grounds.
PMP is hr what does hr know about software implementation? None.
Novell is file system so that is RDBMS storage leaving 95% of SQL Server outside in comparison.
How can there be flaws when we are only looking at ideas and possibilities of how this MIGHT occur? We don't care that Novell is a file system. We are looking for things that may work, may provide triggers to other ideas.
So again, stop with the negativity already and start providing some thing constructive and positive.

Sorry, not calling you Oddball any more, wrong reference. I have to be Oddball in this instance.

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 15

jcrawf02 (3/26/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)[hrI am an oddball because I am pointing out the flaws of what you are proposing, I am documenting my objection to an invalid proposal on technical grounds.
PMP is hr what does hr know about software implementation? None.
Novell is file system so that is RDBMS storage leaving 95% of SQL Server outside in comparison.
The content of the PMP or a Novell certification is not relevant, we're discussing methodology as it pertains to the gap between existing certifications and the MCM.

Well said!