September 19, 2013 at 12:19 pm
Concur, if you don't have a degree and try to job hop, you will find you're filling out a lot of applications with few interviews and fewer job offers. I was in this boat unemployed for 4 months in 2001 before I finished a software development and management degree in 2003 and had a hard time, and that was even with 3 years experience in perl, c++ and sql server at Lexmark. I eventually got in with ACS after *3* interviews because I had an in-house ACS recruiter that liked my passion and attitude he said. He basically worked till he got me in the door. So, you could argue I was in good favor with him and lucked into the deal. But, I was in school at the time and that may have helped.
After the degree, and of course more experience, I've not had trouble getting a job or job hopping, or even getting more money. You won't even realize why you're not getting the job in many cases unless you ask if they will take folks without a degree. Hard cold reality is totally right. You can even stink as a developer but if you've got that piece of paper it can help get you in the door - an even worse hard cold reality, and one of the core reasons we've got so much junk in the software world. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you can code. It's surprising how many good truly technical job interviews I've had, but I've given some. I personally think that you need to test your applicants and let them show they're qualified and can think. And the next level is even showing that you can write good, maintainable software.
September 19, 2013 at 2:14 pm
TravisDBA (9/19/2013)
There is merit to what you say, but the hard cold reality today is most HR departments require the piece(s) of paper (college degrees, etc.) for technical positions. You don't get in the door without it. That's just the way it is. No exceptions. Particularly so in the government sector of any kind, but also in the private sector as well..:-D
Absolutely, 100% true.
While it seems I do have the skillset for my current job, if I hadn't taken the time to get the MS SQL Certs and a Bachelors (and it apparently wouldn't have mattered what the BS was in), I wouldn't have gotten my foot in the door. Yes, it's a government job (via contract company.) They *require* the government guys to maintain current MS certs, so one of them is working on getting ready to take the SQL2012 Querying exam. If he doesn't get it, or get it in a certain timeframe? He is no longer allowed to work (and I think may lose pay) until he does get the cert. Bear in mind, currently all the SQL Servers are 2008 R2, there's no plan yet to go to SQL2012, but he's *got* to have that cert.
I think, as others have likely said in this topic, certs are an easy way for a non-techie HR person to measure someone for a position. They've got certs in what we need, therefore move them along in the interview process. The HR people skim the resumes, certs are an easy to spot, while taking the time to actually read the work experience section means you'll only go over 20 resumes instead of 50...
September 19, 2013 at 3:06 pm
TravisDBA (9/19/2013)
There is merit to what you say, but the hard cold reality today is most HR departments require the piece(s) of paper (college degrees, etc.) for technical positions. You don't get in the door without it. That's just the way it is. No exceptions. Particularly so in the government sector of any kind, but also in the private sector as well..:-D
Which is why I would do everything in my power to always bypass the HR department. They've got some silly checklist that you have to meet. They're not going for the best, most qualified people, but someone who meets all the ticks. Same thing with the list of knowledge requirements. You've seen them; SQL Server, PowerPoint, BizTalk, EVACS, RH40, Lithium Bromide, Sharepoint, C, C++, C#, Java, Ruby, T-SQL, Basic, Visual Basic, Tig Welding, Underwater Basketweaving, SSRS, SSIS, SSAS, SSS, SS, all required for the position.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
September 19, 2013 at 3:13 pm
Grant Fritchey (9/19/2013)...Which is why I would do everything in my power to always bypass the HR department.
And just how are you going to do that?
September 19, 2013 at 3:16 pm
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
Grant Fritchey (9/19/2013)...Which is why I would do everything in my power to always bypass the HR department.
And just how are you going to do that?
Instead of applying for jobs through companies, as much as you can (and you can't always do this) go through individuals in the company. Network to find the jobs. Smaller companies this is frequently not possible, but then, smaller companies usually don't have frightful HR departments.
But, as was pointed out, if you're going for a government job, you may have no choice. But I'll bet you even that is negotiable. Everything is.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
September 19, 2013 at 3:30 pm
That sounds like a hard road to plow, but like I said before, I think the whole college thing is stupid. You're right, talking to the right people, everything is negotiable, even when they appear to be set in stone. It's meant to make it so that the company gets as much out of you as they can without question, and/or to make administration easier for the masses. They may actually respect you more if you refuse to play their little games. It may even play a little into the psychological intrigue where they've stated an interest and want to get you in the door, but you play hard to get and make them want to bend even more. 😎 I think the key with job hunting is kind of like buying a car - play it cool and never ever get in a hurry or make the sales guy think you're squirming to get in that car right now. You have to stay in the driver's seat so to speak and calmly wait for them to come to you, making them kind of beg to get you. I assume the culture in the UK is similar to the US then as far as college "requirements" for most tech jobs?
September 19, 2013 at 3:36 pm
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
That sounds like a hard road to plow, but like I said before, I think the whole college thing is stupid. You're right, talking to the right people, everything is negotiable, even when they appear to be set in stone. It's meant to make it so that the company gets as much out of you as they can without question, and/or to make administration easier for the masses. They may actually respect you more if you refuse to play their little games. It may even play a little into the psychological intrigue where they've stated an interest and want to get you in the door, but you play hard to get and make them want to bend even more. 😎 I think the key with job hunting is kind of like buying a car - play it cool and never ever get in a hurry or make the sales guy think you're squirming to get in that car right now. You have to stay in the driver's seat so to speak and calmly wait for them to come to you, making them kind of beg to get you. I assume the culture in the UK is similar to the US then as far as college "requirements" for most tech jobs?
Not a clue. I live & work in the US. I just work for a UK company. Oh, and I got the job by asking the people in charge, not going through HR. Although, HR at Red Gate are a lovely bunch of people (and how often will you say that?).
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
September 19, 2013 at 3:47 pm
Okay, last question. Do they normally "require" degrees at Red Gate? Again, I'm absolutely not questioning the decision - I know you have skills and you're a very good and creative writer to boot. I'd hire you. : ) I'm just curious for my own insight - and it will probably help others as well.
September 19, 2013 at 3:51 pm
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
Okay, last question. Do they normally "require" degrees at Red Gate? Again, I'm absolutely not questioning the decision - I know you have skills and you're a very good and creative writer to boot. I'd hire you. : ) I'm just curious for my own insight - and it will probably help others as well.
I don't know if it's a requirement. Well, it can't be. I don't have one. But, most of the people working there do. I think the majority actually graduate from there in Cambridge. It's a pretty young company. I think I'm the 3rd oldest employee.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
September 19, 2013 at 3:57 pm
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
I assume the culture in the UK is similar to the US then as far as college "requirements" for most tech jobs?
Not quite as firmly cast in concrete as in the US, but getting steadily more like it. I think we are much more likely over here to decide we don't care what the degree was in, though; but my view may be a bit out of date, because my first real computing job was a 6 week stint at RHEL way back in 1966 (in between degrees), and most of my experience of recruiting and of being recruited is somewhat out of date. I can definitely confirm that what Grant says applies in the UK, though - if you know someone on the inside who thinks you are worth having, you are more likely to get an interview if you get introduced through them than if you go through HR, and it's usually HR that has the silly rules about certificates, not the hiring managers. In fact over the decades HR departments and recruitment consultants have in general got worse over here and more jobs are getting taken through personal contacts.
Tom
September 19, 2013 at 4:15 pm
L' Eomot Inversé (9/19/2013)
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
I assume the culture in the UK is similar to the US then as far as college "requirements" for most tech jobs?Not quite as firmly cast in concrete as in the US, but getting steadily more like it. I think we are much more likely over here to decide we don't care what the degree was in, though; but my view may be a bit out of date, because my first real computing job was a 6 week stint at RHEL way back in 1966 (in between degrees), and most of my experience of recruiting and of being recruited is somewhat out of date. I can definitely confirm that what Grant says applies in the UK, though - if you know someone on the inside who thinks you are worth having, you are more likely to get an interview if you get introduced through them than if you go through HR, and it's usually HR that has the silly rules about certificates, not the hiring managers. In fact over the decades HR departments and recruitment consultants have in general got worse over here and more jobs are getting taken through personal contacts.
Well, just so you guys know, I've seen numerous guys with even lead development roles that have degrees like journalism and the like. I knew a lead at Lexmark with no degree, but that team had some issues creating the first Markvision printer utility and he either moved to a different dept or quit or was possibly fired - not sure which and another up-and-coming young guy with a masters in computer engineering from the Univ of Louisville took over. He was cocky and confident - the replacement - but I believe he was a pretty good developer too though. Not sure if the "failure" of the initial lead was to blame or not. Most of the time initial projects have so much scope creep and unexpected things to come up due to poor planning that they're set up for failure. Clearly he was a lead because he had done some good things. One of the things I remember though was that he said more than once during post-mortem meetings and/or during conversations that he was just not confident the app was going to work, and even said he "had no idea" if it was bug free. There was just a general lack of confidence in it all, and he definitely communicated that a lot of people. He was honest, but that's not something management wants to hear. You could even call it complaining.
You guys have definitely reinforced the idea of the need for networking in finding jobs...
September 20, 2013 at 8:08 am
Grant Fritchey (9/19/2013)
TravisDBA (9/19/2013)
There is merit to what you say, but the hard cold reality today is most HR departments require the piece(s) of paper (college degrees, etc.) for technical positions. You don't get in the door without it. That's just the way it is. No exceptions. Particularly so in the government sector of any kind, but also in the private sector as well..:-DWhich is why I would do everything in my power to always bypass the HR department.
It has been my experience that is not as easy to do nowadays. HR is directly involved in most hirings today. You just can't sneek that by them anymore. Pay is negotiable, agreed, lack of a degree or cert is not.. I know, it's a real paradox because most, if not all of the MS Certs, are virtually worthless IMHO anyway because it just too easy to braindump them. what can I say? It is what it is..:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
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