March 31, 2009 at 2:18 pm
steve.neumann (3/31/2009)
Would spell/grammar checking be too much to ask? Every sentence doesn't need 3 commas...
I don't see no commas, just ellipses (...).
March 31, 2009 at 2:21 pm
GSquared (3/31/2009)
JJ B (3/31/2009)
Concerning the discussion on comfort: There's all kinds of comfort. I find the Civic Hybrid to be extremely comfortable in several ways. I'm not overly concerned with "getting in and out of the car", though there is no problem with that. I'm more concerned with the drive. The Civic's drive is smooth and calming. When you come to a stop and the engine turns off and the car gets as quiet as a car can possibly get, it is such a nice break in a hectic day. A moment of peace.The seats are comfortable. The cooling and air is top notch - including automatic temperature so that if you turn on say the heat, you can set it to a say 70 degrees and the heating will adjust to stay at that temperature.
There's plenty of comfort in my car and precious little of it has to do with car size. (Only, I'd guess it is cheaper to heat my little car than a big honker. 😉 The idea that a bigger car is over-all inherently more comfortable makes no sense to me.
How tall are you? I couldn't even get into the driver's side on my wife's Geo Metro without yoga-like contortions. And, no, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest on that.
I'll have to agree with GSquared, and not because I'm tall (only 5' 7") but I had a co-worker at my last employer who was 6' 11". I don't think he'd fit the Metro at all. He needed a BIG car. Oh, his daughter at 12 was 5' 10".
March 31, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I'm 5 feet, but I've had much taller passengers who have had no problems getting in and out of my car. The car body is a standard Civic body. Plenty big for most people.
I have not given rides to say basketball tall people. I'll concede that maybe they would struggle. I don't know. Did you say how tall you are? I don't remember.
But that wasn't my point. I wasn't saying that car size was not an issue to anyone at any time. My point was that there are a whole range of issues to consider on the topic of comfort, only one of which can be loosely related to car size. My guess is that for the majority of people, the size of the car is not the defining factor concerning a car's comfort level. Average sized people are going to care more about all these things: noise, comfortable seats, good sound system, good heating and cooling, power windows, nice cup holders , etc, etc, etc. You can get all these things in a standard compact 4-door car.
I can understand if you are super tall that you would focus on ease of entry and exit over all the other comfort factors. There are tiny cars and then there are regular sized 4-door cars. I have no idea what a GEO Metro is. Maybe it is one of those tiny cars? If so, I can see how that would affect comfort for really large people. I guess my point here is that if you go to extreme smallness, then I agree that car size could have a measurable impact on over-all comfort. I just don't think that car size comfort is the issue that explains the poor choices Americans have made in purchasing cars.
March 31, 2009 at 2:38 pm
I'll have to agree with GSquared, and not because I'm tall (only 5' 7") but I had a co-worker at my last employer who was 6' 11". I don't think he'd fit the Metro at all. He needed a BIG car. Oh, his daughter at 12 was 5' 10".
That's one tall family!
I'll just reiterate that my point was not to say that car size is never a factor for anyone. My point is that I don't think it is much of a factor regarding comfort for the majority of people. No one I know anyway has ever mentioned it. (Maybe I only know little people and my world is deprived of the great giants.)
March 31, 2009 at 2:51 pm
JJ B (3/31/2009)
I'm 5 feet, but I've had much taller passengers who have had no problems getting in and out of my car. The car body is a standard Civic body. Plenty big for most people.I have not given rides to say basketball tall people. I'll concede that maybe they would struggle. I don't know. Did you say how tall you are? I don't remember.
But that wasn't my point. I wasn't saying that car size was not an issue to anyone at any time. My point was that there are a whole range of issues to consider on the topic of comfort, only one of which can be loosely related to car size. My guess is that for the majority of people, the size of the car is not the defining factor concerning a car's comfort level. Average sized people are going to care more about all these things: noise, comfortable seats, good sound system, good heating and cooling, power windows, nice cup holders , etc, etc, etc. You can get all these things in a standard compact 4-door car.
I can understand if you are super tall that you would focus on ease of entry and exit over all the other comfort factors. There are tiny cars and then there are regular sized 4-door cars. I have no idea what a GEO Metro is. Maybe it is one of those tiny cars? If so, I can see how that would affect comfort for really large people. I guess my point here is that if you go to extreme smallness, then I agree that car size could have a measurable impact on over-all comfort. I just don't think that car size comfort is the issue that explains the poor choices Americans have made in purchasing cars.
I don't consider the purchase of our GMC Envoy a poor choice in purchasing a car. With a wife and three kids, plus all the stuff we sometimes haul around to soccer practice/games, grocery shopping, or on vacation trips, etc., it was a very worthwhile purchase.
Making generalizations about purchase decisions is just wrong. Each individual has to make decisions based on their needs and expectations. Everyone's needs and expectations differ.
March 31, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Disclaimer: I worked at a Tier 1/Tier 2 supplier in the 1990's and a lot of my family worked and works for GM.
The biggest issue with the US Auto industry is, and has for a very long time been, short sightedness. GM especially is a reactionary company. They are not innovative.
However, I think the biggest problem is the breadth of the product lines. GM has a huge number of brands, Ford and Chrysler, likewise. Each of those brands requires engineering, marketing, administration, and other overhead that shows itself unwieldly in the present circumstance.
I think an ideal model going forward would be to have much more modular design where one could "build" their car like you can build your computer: I want this engine, that transmission, this AC, this body, these wheels, that radio, those mirrors, etc. Doing this would distinctly reduce the marginal cost for each vehicle but reduce brand recognition.
There is also no reason that car companies can not make an inexpensive car (read < $5000). An efficient, reliable engine on a standard frame with an acceptable body and a few accessories. This, marketed as a second/commuter car, would compete directly with the used car market for both first time car buyers and people, like my wife and I, who don't need a second car, but wouldn't mind having the convenience of one occasionally.
On a side note, I also want to be able to buy "lifetime" insurance for my car. My previous car was 15 years old when it was replaced and even basic insurance per year was more than the value of the car. Since I'd be paying up front, I should get a reasonable rate and the insurance company would get the time value of all that cash. The auto companies might use a model like this to expand into the car insurance market by building the insurance into the cost of the car and financing over a longer term. (I think this would work especially well with the commuter car described above)
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JimFive
March 31, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Our decision to buy the Prius was an economic one. Based on the costs, choices we wanted, tax credit, etc., the Prius was the best fit. We've saved a bunch of money given our lifestyle, where we live etc. I've never claimed it was to be super green. This is, as mentioned, just my report, which may or may not apply to you. I've reported the savings because someone else might be interested in how the Prius has performed for us.
Also, being a car guy, I wanted to share experiences. We avoid driving the pickup we have, and I even forgo trips in my sports car to save some $$, and a little gas.
I'm 6', my son 6', my wife 5' 10", a Yaris wouldn't cut it. The Prius holds us all, and while not super roomy, accommodates us fine. However if you're a commuter, there are plenty of cars that make sense, probably better sense than a Prius. If you're a one car family, and you have 4-5 people, the Prius is worth looking at.
March 31, 2009 at 3:01 pm
I find the Civic Hybrid to be extremely comfortable in several ways.
When I looked at the Civic Hybrid in 2004 (I think, maybe 2005) I found that the passenger's seat was very uncomfortable. The driver's seat was excellent but we were told there was no upgrad for the passenger's seat. Has that changed?
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JimFive
March 31, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Making generalizations about purchase decisions is just wrong. Each individual has to make decisions based on their needs and expectations. Everyone's needs and expectations differ.
I totally agree that each individual has to make their own decisions based on individual needs. And I in no way intended to insult your choice of car for your family. I'm sure that every vehicle make and model (maybe even the Hummer) probably has at least one person/situation for which the vehicle was the perfect choice.
At the same time, I stand by my generalization. As a general rule, I believe the vast majority of Americans have made bad car choices.
Example: Someone wants say the Hummer image when they have no need for it. They just want the image and when they bought the car, they could afford it. Why shouldn't they get it? For our society, that's a bad choice when you add up that decision with all the other similar decisions on the road.
Example: I have a co-worker who a couple years ago bought an expensive, big gas guzzling SUV because she "likes the feel of it" and "feels safer in a bigger car". That decision was about feelings. Not about making smart choices for herself, let alone our society.
I believe a lot of people buy cars for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with making smart choices for their real needs. (Which is not saying anything at all about your particular choices and your needs.)
............Had individuals in our society made smarter choices in general for their situation.
............Had we prioritized and gotten the features that we really needed.
............Had we paid attention to gas mileage (whether to save money or the environment or dependence on foreign oil or whatever floats your boat).
............Had we years ago insisted on our country taking the leadership and making high quality, comfortable alternative fuel cars.
............> We would have as Americans have been making smarter choices. Our auto industry would not be in as much pain as it is now. (says my crystal ball)
Of course, that's just my opinion.
March 31, 2009 at 3:23 pm
steve.neumann (3/31/2009)
Would spell/grammar checking be too much to ask? Every sentence doesn't need 3 commas...
Where are the commas? Teach me master.
March 31, 2009 at 3:25 pm
When I looked at the Civic Hybrid in 2004 (I think, maybe 2005) I found that the passenger's seat was very uncomfortable. The driver's seat was excellent but we were told there was no upgrad for the passenger's seat. Has that changed?
re: "Has that changed?" I'm not sure if you are asking if they now offer upgrades or if the passenger's seat is now more comfortable than it was in the past. I do not know the answer to either question.
I do think seat comfort is rather individual. I haven't heard anyone complain about my passenger seat, but then again, only one person has spent a whole lot of time (a multi-day car trip on vacation) in the passenger seat. My passenger never mentioned feeling any discomfort. I'm confident she would have if she had felt any.
That's all I can say on the topic. I've seen Civics around town that are newer than mine and it looks like some things have changed. Maybe it is time for another test drive.
March 31, 2009 at 3:31 pm
JJ B (3/31/2009)
Example: I have a co-worker who a couple years ago bought an expensive, big gas guzzling SUV because she "likes the feel of it" and "feels safer in a bigger car". That decision was about feelings. Not about making smart choices for herself, let alone our society.Of course, that's just my opinion.
And the fact she "likes the feel of it" and "feels safer in a bigger car" is a valid reason for a person making a decision in purchasing a vehicle. Would you want her to buy a car she DIDN'T feel safe in just because (fill in your reason here).
I can understand the need to feel safe in a vehicle. I have been rear-ended on the highway while at a full stop by a vehicle travelling 65+ mph. I have slammed a car into a ditch at 70+ mph because of blacking out while driving (by the way same car a year apart, Honda Civic; d*** good car saved my life twice). Would I get that same feeling from a mini like a co-worker of mine had while stationed in England in the late 70'/early 80's, NO. Would the mini be a better choice for a variety reasons, like gas milage, maybe.
Our problem is we all try to generalize everything without trying to get to know the real reasons why someone made the choice(s) they made.
March 31, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Opps....my bad. My MOTORCYCLE gets 45mpg, my daughter's Yaris gets 32. Why do I know these things?? Because my 21 daughter lives with me and I've taught her the importance of watching her mpg to watch for car problems.
When compared to a 20mpg sedan or truck a Prius is cost effective. When compared to other similar gas-based cars, it is not. The estimated 5-year cost of a Prius is around 30K. The estimated 5-year cost of a Yaris sedan is around $25K. Interestingly enough, the savings in fuel is gobbled up by the increased insurance cost, so the out-of-pocket expenses are just about the same. Steve spent more money just so he could have more room, the savings statistics are bogus without a reference.
March 31, 2009 at 3:51 pm
I'm not sure most people made bad choices. there are always some that made poor financial choices, but buying a larger car, or a less efficient car because you liked it/wanted it, isn't a bad choice. That person would have to determine that.
As a country have we made bad choices in cars? I'm not sure there either. The oil companies/government ensuring low cost of fuel has some blame there as well.
Should we be more green? I think so, but that's a choice that has to be made by each person, and influenced by the government with policies. Lots of SUVs/Hummers were purchased because of tax breaks for expensive "trucks"
March 31, 2009 at 3:53 pm
And the fact she "likes the feel of it" and "feels safer in a bigger car" is a valid reason for a person making a decision in purchasing a vehicle.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. "Feeling safer" is not the same thing as *being* safer. She was not faced with only two choices of giant and mini. She could have educated herself and learned to feel plenty safe with a different car that would have met many of her bigger needs much better.
And "likes the feel of it" is a valid primary reason for purchasing a car only if you do not take into account the bigger context/picture of our world.
I'm glad you are happy with your car. I'm sure it was the wisest decision you could make. Again, I'm not trying to put you down personally in any way. And I agree with you up to a point. I can't know the wisdom of every individual situation. At the same time, I can believe that humans in general can be most unwise, and that individuals are capable of making many bad decisions for themselves which also affect the larger society. (Where there too many commas in that last sentence?)
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