March 31, 2009 at 8:15 am
It isn't necessarily true that bigger cars are more comfortable for tall/large people to drive. It was reported by Daniel Pinkwater (a self-described large person) that after doing his own independent study (in a Wal-Mart parking lot observing other people of generous proportion) that the most comfortable car and easiest to get in and out of was . . . the new VW Bug.
March 31, 2009 at 8:19 am
Everyone is different. What is comfortable for one person may not be for someone else. We own a GMC Envoy, a Suzuki Forenza, and a Ford Focus. The Envoy is the most comfortable of the three to ride in as well as getting in and out of. My Forenza is easier to get in and of than the Suzuki Esteem it replaced and about the same as the Focus.
March 31, 2009 at 8:28 am
No matter who's at fault, the mess still needs dealing with.
It's almost as if the government needs to mandate that the cars coming out of the US plants are quantifiably better than those from foreign markets, and provide incentives for consumers to buy them. Make it hard for foreign markets to compete, it would be a no-brainer for those who are looking to get the best deal for the money.
Some countries are offering significant tax credits to consumers who trade in their 10+ year old car for a newer model. The auto industry, the environment, the economy, AND the consumer wins. Who knows if the US will do this as well..
March 31, 2009 at 8:52 am
Yes, we've been frivolous in the US, yes we've wasted efforts. However I'm not sure that we all have just wanted SUVs. If you look back, there have been trends, times when certain types of cars have been very popular. Some of that is changing attitudes, some of marketing and everyone wanting to be like every one else. The tax changes at the beginning of this century encouraged Hummers and large SUVs. I'm not sure that was a good move.
You can see how passionate some people are about their cars from this thread, and I think that's great. I don't always agree with you, but I like the passion. Cars are a big part of US society, more than other countries it seems. We like them big and powerful.
The Prius get 45-50mpg, not 30. That's a big difference. Trading in old cars for newer ones makes some sense, but I'm not sure if that will work.
The Big 3 have made mistakes. They've relied, as have other manufacturers, on large, high profit cars, and an expanding market. In a capital intensive industry, with large lead times, that's a mistake. Toyota has done a better job of preparing itself for different markets. They've enhanced their Tundra, but they've also worked hard to make the Yaris, Matrix, Camry, and Venza. They've innovated with the FJ. I never liked Toyota much, but I have liked what they've done here. Ford has done a lot as well, working through a wide variety of new models, styles, and price points (escape, flex, fusion, focus). Dodge a little, but I see them pushing their larger models rather than the smaller ones. For every Matrix advertisement, I see 0 Caliber/Avenger ones. GM has done a great job of repackaging their SUV platform across all models.
It's not their cars though, all have done some work here. It's their business model. They haven't looked forward, and tried to build smaller cars that break new ground like the FJ, the Element, the CRV/Rav4. They've been lazy, stuck in the keep doing what has made profits and enriched management. Certainly haven't helped shareholders. They are too big, and not ready to move on to new ideas. They own Dialmer, Volvo, etc. They are still part of the issue. Toyota is working on being part of the problem as well. Too long they've relied on an emotional "sale" taking place when someone walks in the door, not proving a value that makes sense for the customer. Who doesn't have a bad car salesman story in the US?
I don't think that most people need to tow anything. I've had hundreds of friends with SUVs that have never towed anything. People with pristine cars full of junk they're carrying around that they don't want to clean out. I used to be that way, but it's a short sighted way of looking at things. I've love the space in a minivan, my wife mentioned that last week when we couldn't get the kids bike in the Prius. That's like 3x in the last year we've had a problem. That worth trading the Prius for a minivan/SUV? Don't think so.
Community cars might help. Lots of issues with this, liabilities, restrictions on what you can do, cleaning, etc., but it could help. Heck if I could easily rent an SUV for a day to go skiing, I'd do it. However now it's an hour out of my day because no matter how much information I plug into the Enterprise/Hertz/Dollar site, apparently they can't figure out how to get that to the agent.
We need a few new models of doing business, and I'm not sure that a huge company like GM/Toyota/Dialmer can do it. Toyota has shown more flexibility in the past, so I might bet on them, and Ford is really trying. It will be interesting, that's for sure.
March 31, 2009 at 9:10 am
One reason Americans drive bigger vehicles is the perception that they are safer, and will protect Mom and the soccer playing little ones better. I know a lot of folks who have said they bought a Suburban or Tahoe or Expedition because the extra size helps survivability in the average crash. I don't know if that's necessarily true, but it is a significant reason for buying large SUV's.
Another reason for the rise of the SUV is the CAFE law, which essentially killed the large station wagons (estate cars for the UK) we all used to have. The CAFE law did not apply to light trucks, but did apply to station wagons. Since building a station wagon that met the CAFE requirements was difficult, the auto makers started building SUV's, which the public loved. When I was a kid, the Moms had a station wagon, the Dads drove sedans. These days, Mom drives an SUV.
One reason you don't see ads for the Caliber/Avenger is they are utter crap cars, with no redeemiing features. I've driven a Caliber a few times as a rental, and there's no way I would ever own one. Poorly designed, uncomfortable, noisy, etc. Didn't the folks at Chrysler look at a Camry, or Corolla, or a Jetta?
One reason I turned aways from US made cars is that until recently, the electric window switches were a safety hazard for children. Japanese and European cars for years had switches that required an overt lifting motion to close a window. US makers continued using the rocker swithces that were easy to engae for up or down by a child inadvertently hitting them. We ad this as a topic at a safety meeting that discussed human factors and poor engineering.
March 31, 2009 at 9:38 am
Concerning the safety discussion: One of the reasons I picked the Civic Hybrid (over the Prius) is that I saw a government study (don't remember which one) that gave the Civic a 5 star safety rating (the Prius of the time got 3 stars). It was my understanding that 5 stars is the highest rating. The Civic hybrid has a big steel bar in the side to help with side crashes and side airbags that are standard, standard anti-lock brakes, etc. It has a good weight and feels pretty darn safe to me.
A couple years ago a woman ran a red light and crashed right into the side of my car as I was turning. She was driving a big ugly SUV. My car survived. All passengers (me and my Great Dane) survived (though Duke was traumatized). Happy, safe ending for one anecdote.
March 31, 2009 at 9:51 am
Concerning the discussion on comfort: There's all kinds of comfort. I find the Civic Hybrid to be extremely comfortable in several ways. I'm not overly concerned with "getting in and out of the car", though there is no problem with that. I'm more concerned with the drive. The Civic's drive is smooth and calming. When you come to a stop and the engine turns off and the car gets as quiet as a car can possibly get, it is such a nice break in a hectic day. A moment of peace.
The seats are comfortable. The cooling and air is top notch - including automatic temperature so that if you turn on say the heat, you can set it to a say 70 degrees and the heating will adjust to stay at that temperature.
There's plenty of comfort in my car and precious little of it has to do with car size. (Only, I'd guess it is cheaper to heat my little car than a big honker. 😉 The idea that a bigger car is over-all inherently more comfortable makes no sense to me.
March 31, 2009 at 10:12 am
None of the car X-prize entries "sing" to me. Not one. All are merely trying to get minor efficiencies out of current technology. Not one that I saw is using anything radically more efficient.
And worse yet, none consider family-sized vehicles, unless the entrant is only shooting for fuel economy such as with some deisel entries.
The problem is that the industries are so heavily and tightly regulated, legal and road-worthy innovation is stuck unless they jump through loop-holes such as motorcycle class designs...
None of these will help my family needs. So I will stick with the current crop of autos. For personal work commute... public transport needs major improvement... I don't have to have my own vehicle.
March 31, 2009 at 10:30 am
Electric isn't currently the way to go to be green, they are not 'pollution free' by any stretch. Around 77% of the electricity produced in the US is by either coal, natural gas, or oil. Coal is used to produce almost 50% of the electricity in this country. Nuclear is another 19%. That leaves around 9% for 'clean' options like hydroelectric, solar, wind, etc. Electric cars are cheaper to operate, but once the electric companies are required to start capturing CO2 output, you can bet electric rates will start to go higher and higher, making the cars greener while making your wallet thinner.
March 31, 2009 at 10:34 am
I find it funny that Prius owner Steve Jones is all proud of his mpg ratings and 'savings'. My daughter bought a Yaris for a lot less that a Prius and gets an average of around 45mpg when driving around town. Start comparing your savings at 48mpg to 45mpg and see how much you are really saving.
The simplest answer is to simply drive less. I own a 9 year old Chevy Blazer that gets 20mpg, but I only put around 5,000 miles a year on it. So I'm using less gas and causing less pollution than some smug Prius owner who drives 20,000 miles/year, partly on 'numerous ski trips'. Maybe if Mr. Jones cut back a little bit on his ski trips he could show how green he really wants to be, instead of just pretending.
This has been and will continue to be one of the problems with going green. Many people equate 'better mpg' with 'now I can drive more'.
March 31, 2009 at 10:46 am
jfox (3/31/2009)
I find it funny that Prius owner Steve Jones is all proud of his mpg ratings and 'savings'. My daughter bought a Yaris for a lot less that a Prius and gets an average of around 45mpg when driving around town. Start comparing your savings at 48mpg to 45mpg and see how much you are really saving.The simplest answer is to simply drive less. I own a 9 year old Chevy Blazer that gets 20mpg, but I only put around 5,000 miles a year on it. So I'm using less gas and causing less pollution than some smug Prius owner who drives 20,000 miles/year, partly on 'numerous ski trips'. Maybe if Mr. Jones cut back a little bit on his ski trips he could show how green he really wants to be, instead of just pretending.
This has been and will continue to be one of the problems with going green. Many people equate 'better mpg' with 'now I can drive more'.
Why, perchance, should "Mr Jones" cut back on his ski trips? Just so he can say he is "going green"? Sorry, but if he and his family like to ski, and he wants to take the time for such a trip, why deny him the pleasure?
And I really like the generalities when they are thrown around, they sound so "official". Why not back it up with facts. Steve and his family going on a ski trip actually helps support our economy more than sitting around the house watching TV. If I don't need to drive, I don't. I have three active kids at home, one who as her own car, works, and helps us out with the other two when we all seem to be going in different directions.
March 31, 2009 at 10:58 am
jfox (3/31/2009)
I find it funny that Prius owner Steve Jones is all proud of his mpg ratings and 'savings'. My daughter bought a Yaris for a lot less that a Prius and gets an average of around 45mpg when driving around town. Start comparing your savings at 48mpg to 45mpg and see how much you are really saving.The simplest answer is to simply drive less. I own a 9 year old Chevy Blazer that gets 20mpg, but I only put around 5,000 miles a year on it. So I'm using less gas and causing less pollution than some smug Prius owner who drives 20,000 miles/year, partly on 'numerous ski trips'. Maybe if Mr. Jones cut back a little bit on his ski trips he could show how green he really wants to be, instead of just pretending.
This has been and will continue to be one of the problems with going green. Many people equate 'better mpg' with 'now I can drive more'.
I find Jones neither smug, nor assumptive, nor proud. I rather have seen only an analysis from a Prius owner. It is simply a car analysis. He has never boasted or asserted his choice was best, and in fact occasionally gives cons with his "testing" experience.
"My Daughter" is as good as "my son's best-friends' mother"... it is still 3rd party witness. Steve is offering a first person experience... nothing more.
The choice of car has little to do with "green-ness" any how, as all is wild perception, and level of acceptance.
On the other hand, the whole topic has not much to do with SSC. 😛
March 31, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Would spell/grammar checking be too much to ask? Every sentence doesn't need 3 commas...
March 31, 2009 at 2:11 pm
JJ B (3/31/2009)
Concerning the discussion on comfort: There's all kinds of comfort. I find the Civic Hybrid to be extremely comfortable in several ways. I'm not overly concerned with "getting in and out of the car", though there is no problem with that. I'm more concerned with the drive. The Civic's drive is smooth and calming. When you come to a stop and the engine turns off and the car gets as quiet as a car can possibly get, it is such a nice break in a hectic day. A moment of peace.The seats are comfortable. The cooling and air is top notch - including automatic temperature so that if you turn on say the heat, you can set it to a say 70 degrees and the heating will adjust to stay at that temperature.
There's plenty of comfort in my car and precious little of it has to do with car size. (Only, I'd guess it is cheaper to heat my little car than a big honker. 😉 The idea that a bigger car is over-all inherently more comfortable makes no sense to me.
How tall are you? I couldn't even get into the driver's side on my wife's Geo Metro without yoga-like contortions. And, no, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest on that.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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March 31, 2009 at 2:16 pm
jfox (3/31/2009)
I find it funny that Prius owner Steve Jones is all proud of his mpg ratings and 'savings'. My daughter bought a Yaris for a lot less that a Prius and gets an average of around 45mpg when driving around town. Start comparing your savings at 48mpg to 45mpg and see how much you are really saving.The simplest answer is to simply drive less. I own a 9 year old Chevy Blazer that gets 20mpg, but I only put around 5,000 miles a year on it. So I'm using less gas and causing less pollution than some smug Prius owner who drives 20,000 miles/year, partly on 'numerous ski trips'. Maybe if Mr. Jones cut back a little bit on his ski trips he could show how green he really wants to be, instead of just pretending.
This has been and will continue to be one of the problems with going green. Many people equate 'better mpg' with 'now I can drive more'.
First, don't be rude.
Second, don't be rude.
Third, stop making assumptions about Steve, or anyone else for that matter.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
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