July 30, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (7/30/2008)
The Prius is interesting to drive because of the mpg feedback you get in real time. I definitely promotes me to hypermile, but the "fun" piece is like most of the other cars, minivans, etc. Not really there. It's transport.
I wouldn't promote the Prius over another small car. Or another hybrid, especially now with the tax credit gone. I think you could do better with a Honda or Nissan hybrid, or a fuel efficient car like the Smart Car, Yaris, Jetta, etc.
It's an individual choice, and I think you have to make the decision what car you like, what fits your lifestyle, budget, etc.
I have to get one last comment in -- I LOVE my Prius. I think the quiet electric engine is cool. When I commuted I was easily able to speed up to 80 mph on open freeway - okay, it doesn't have the pickup to get to that speed very fast, but once at the high speed it cruised and still gave me 46 mpg.
I looked at the other small cars when I shopped for my Prius and one of the things that drew me to it was it felt bigger on the inside than on the outside. I like leg room and head room and I was easily able to set the seat at a comfortable position for driving, whereas with other cars my head was jammed up against the headliner or my legs were really bent or both. While the Prius isn't the car for a large family it can comfortably transport four large adults, or three adults and a wheelchair (I've done it), or two adults and the Christmas tree!
Don't get me wrong, I have also test driven a BMW and a Lexus, and I love the power of a big engine, but they just aren't practical for most people.
And I don't buy the story that the Prius is more environmentally unfriendly than "American" cars because it is shipped from Japan and has parts that come from Canada. Ford and GM both produce most of their parts in Canada and Mexico and ship them where they need to for sales. And I remember a story on BBC America about a seafood company in the south of Britain that caught the seafood locally, shipped them to someplace in Africa for initial processing, then shipped them back to Britain where they were placed in their final packaging. Because the overall cost was cheaper.
July 30, 2008 at 3:24 pm
And I don't buy the story that the Prius is more environmentally unfriendly than "American" cars because it is shipped from Japan and has parts that come from Canada. Ford and GM both produce most of their parts in Canada and Mexico and ship them where they need to for sales. And I remember a story on BBC America about a seafood company in the south of Britain that caught the seafood locally, shipped them to someplace in Africa for initial processing, then shipped them back to Britain where they were placed in their final packaging. Because the overall cost was cheaper.
Whether or not you buy it... it's a fact (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188) which can be found published in a wide number of journals. The Prius is not the worst offender on the planet, that would have to go to it's bigger cousin, the Lexus LS Hybrid, which in addition to doing more harm to the environment, before it has gone a mile, gets worse fuel mileage than its non hybrid brethren (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/15/automobiles/autoreviews/15AUTO.html). If you bought the Prius because you legitimately liked the car, great, but if you bought to help the environment then you are an idiot.
July 30, 2008 at 3:51 pm
That "editorial" isn't fact, it's an inflammatory piece. It got widely picked up for that reason and there have been some stories that show a Prius is not worse than a Hummer. I'd question whether the author really researched what it takes to "pool together" all the costs of making one.
Does it pollute to build one? Absolutely. It also pollutes to build lots of other things, and I don't see a comparison anywhere that talks about how much better or worse it is to build other cars.
Acid rain has been an issue for years, and while I'm not saying the Prius doesn't make it worse in Canada, I'm not sure the mine would be closed if the Prius wasn't being made.
July 30, 2008 at 4:34 pm
jpowers (7/30/2008)
And I don't buy the story that the Prius is more environmentally unfriendly than "American" cars because it is shipped from Japan and has parts that come from Canada. Ford and GM both produce most of their parts in Canada and Mexico and ship them where they need to for sales. And I remember a story on BBC America about a seafood company in the south of Britain that caught the seafood locally, shipped them to someplace in Africa for initial processing, then shipped them back to Britain where they were placed in their final packaging. Because the overall cost was cheaper.
Toyota is building a plant in Kentucky, if I recall correctly, for Prius/hybrid production. They're also doing a lot of research, as all car makers are, on battery technology that is more environmentally friendly.
That BBC story is crazy. I hadn't heard it, but I'm not surprised. They're saying that one potential outcome of the increased price of oil is reverse globalization: Pittsburgh at $46 an hour is beginning to look more attractive than shipping your steel to/from South America/overseas/wherever for processing.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
July 30, 2008 at 4:48 pm
The Prius was built as a fuel efficient car for people that were concerned about the environment. The truth is that it isn't as fuel efficient as it was originally billed, nor as green as it was implied to be. For those of us who knew what was involved in making hybrids, this wasn't a real shock. But, a lot of people seem to be living denial that their car is somehow greener than a honda civic or an accord. The truth is a VW Jetta TDI, is a much more environmentally friendly car, even if it isn't running on bio-diesel. I recently bought a 79 Mercedes 300D coupe, for racing in the 24 hours of Lemons. Cost me $300 in non running condition, but after about 8 hours of work, it is back on the road averaging between 45 and 50 mpg. The car is no speed demon, with about 75-80 hp, but is unbelievably comfortable and quite a big car by my standards. Part of the reason for it being able to do this, is it doesn't have all the safety equipment that a modern car has. I feel bad about stripping it down for racing, but after I run it a couple of times on the track using bio-diesel, I will probably restore it back to original condition.
July 30, 2008 at 4:53 pm
I think that some of the crazy shipping stuff will come to a close. Still not sure if overnighting things from Amazon makes sense, but there's probably some hybrid models of shipping/assembling/storing that will make more sense in the future.
July 30, 2008 at 4:54 pm
matt (7/30/2008)
The Prius was built as a fuel efficient car for people that were concerned about the environment. The truth is that it isn't as fuel efficient as it was originally billed, nor as green as it was implied to be. ...
The problem was that the Feds didn't know how to calculate estimated mileage for the Prius when it came out, it was among the first of its breed and they'd never had to deal with such a car, conventional testing methods did not apply. The estimated MPG that appears on the sticker and in advertising is not calculated by the maker but by Federal testing. After a couple of years of re-development, they revised the testing standards to something more realistic and its mileage dropped, no surprise there. But it's still an efficient car by any standard, but not THE most efficient.
That's very cool what you did with the Benz, I love the concept of the Lemons races.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
July 30, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Not sure what's up with some of the Prius haters on here! Haha.
I have to say I love my Prius. It is twice as efficient as my last car, a Dodge Neon. That car got 24 mpg and now I'm getting 48, no complaints from me at all. I was in the market for a new car and it made total sense to buy one. Now I wouldn't just rush out to get one if your current car is doing okay, but if you're in the market for a new car do consider it.
The part about the batteries not being recyclable is just crazy. They're nickel metal hydride batteries, the exact same technology as used by the rechargeable batteries you buy in the store; which are very much recyclable.
July 31, 2008 at 9:49 am
This will be my first time racing lemons, so I am pretty excited by the whole thing as well. I impressed by bio-diesel in general and could easily see how this could be a quick solution for our fuel problems. The odd thing is, it cost more to buy bio-diesel from retail outlets, than petrol based diesel. So, I am getting my companies that use trucks to invest in making their own bio-diesel. As long as you have enough room on your facilities to store a couple of cargo containers (for the rape oil or similar), its very cheap and easy to make yourself. I looked into building a bio-diesel fueling station for the big rigs that run up and down our state and was amazed at the amount of red tape involved in setting up a bio fuel station. I could buy a gas station and have it up and running within 6 months, but it looks like it will take me 1-2 years before I can setup a bio fuel station.
July 31, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Did Steve really say he has had 24 cars. Holy crap!!!
The energy to build all those cars far outweighs any savings he is going to get driving Prius. Sorry guys but you cant consume your way out of global warming.
August 1, 2008 at 1:19 am
mtucker has it right. You can't consume your way out of global warming.
I think I missed the comment where someone said a Prius has a bigger carbon foot print then a Hummer. I'd have to say I'd be skeptical of that fact. Will buying a Prius "made in the USA" reduce the carbon footprint of the Prius? Let me see. Sure the direct carbon footprint might be reduced by not having to ship the cars as far to the dealership and if all material is locally made the transportation of the parts will be reduced but will it cut it in half? Seeing that, per capitia, the USA has 2x the carbon emissions that Japan does you have to ask if feeding more money into the US economy is the best option, before anyone gets to offended I am American and I served 6 years in the USMC, it is just a fact that we are, on average, less
environmentally friendly then Japan. IE give a US citizen $1 and a Japanese citizen 108 yen the American will most likely produce more carbon from the spending of that $1.
Australian isn't far behind the USA either. There are many variables that need to be looked at. What you import and export is the biggest factors. If product x causes 1 ton of carbon emission and all of product x is exported to me that 1 ton isn't part of your footprint but the footprint of the consumer. That is the problem US citizens are bred to be consumers. We have it drilled into our heads that the more we consume the happier and better off we will be.
Should you stop consuming? Well I'm not going to. But if I should have to pay form my consumption then I will. I'm willing to pay more for petrol/gas if they spend that extra money to remove the carbon footprint of the fuel that I use. We are at the point where we can't expect thingsto be cheap and not worry about the environmental impact of the production of the item. For years many of us have been getting things cheap and it is our children that will pay for it. Its
time to suck it up and do what you can. Don't complain when people call you on your indulgence. Make your choices. I'd be happy with a flat carbon tax. When a product is made the environmental impact of the product is computed. You buy the product and you pay a tax that goes directly to neutralizing the impact. If you can't afford the clean up then you can't afford the product.
I'll get off the soap box now.
August 1, 2008 at 10:56 am
I posted that issue about the Prius having a larger carbon footprint than a Hummer, to be more inflammatory than anything else. However, it still stands that even if a Prius is made in the US, it will require more transportation of materials to build than a Hummer. This has to do with where things are mined, where they are refined and who has the property to manufacture certain parts that are unique to the Prius.
I like your idea about the carbon tax, however it will never stand because those in charge of it wouldn't be able to figure out how to implement it and furthermore it would cut deeply into US consumables. One of my companies sells the chemicals used in the fabrication of wide variety of industrial products (silicon wafer production to stone sealants). We have been making a concerted effort to go green, but realistically there is no way to be green given the nature of how these things are made. What's more amusing is the lists of green products we get from independent groups who are trying to promote green use. In one case they sent us a list of "low voc" products that can be used in sealing interior stone and they listed a dupont stone sealant that had a very green sounding name, but has to be one of the most environmentally damaging things we carry and its VOC was through the roof. Which illustrates the problem with implementing a carbon tax. Very few people are aware of what is involved in manufacturing the everyday things around them. Some of the things you think would have a large carbon footprint don't and some things you assume have low carbon footprint don't.
At the end of the day, I think the best thing we can do is try to substitute our spending on many low quality products and replace them with fewer, more expensive high quality products. It's more about changing consumer attitudes than about imposing fines that will just cause people to use more credit. The only thing that seems to change American thinking is movies, tv and celebs. So, I propose, investment in Hollywood and Hip hop. Get them to show people how they should live and people will emulate them. Look at the Prius. Toyota, gave those things out to any celeb that wanted one and it payed off in spades.
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