July 29, 2008 at 6:40 am
Some questions:
1) I hear that the batteries in a typical hybrid need to be replaced around 80k - it that true? If so, it completely outweighs the gas savings, even at today's prices. Might be a better bargain in the UK (sorry you guys, filling a tank must hurt a lot over their...)
Anyway, in order for the hybrids to be truly economical, the battery has to last the life of the car, or get a lot less expensive.
2) For the diesel people; do people still have problems with the fuel gelling up in cold weather? I'm in the northeastern US, and my friends with diesels have told some sad stories of their car dying halfway to work on cold days. If you're in the south, no problem.
My problem: I bought a smaller-sized SUV back when gas was still around $2.00 a gallon. I get around 20 mpg. Now that gas is at $4.00, the price hurts, but it doesn't hurt anywhere near as badly as selling my now-unpopular vehicle at a loss and buying something else that has different but still significant problems. Forgive me for being one of those boorish american skeptics, but I'm afraid I don't buy into the carbon footprint hype. For me, it's more personal economics. I'm open to alternatives as long as they're price competitive.
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July 29, 2008 at 6:44 am
Makes no difference to me.
My main car for getting to work is a Ford Explorer, get about 15 - 17MPG (~13.5 to 15.5 L/100KM). At $4 a gallon I spent $25 a week on gas.
Luckily the next car I get (Corvette) should get better milage (seriously).
My motorcycle (bigger engine than most European cars at 1670CC) get about 30-33 MPG, so is not too bad.
My wife has a Mazda3 with a 2.3L, not sure what she gets for mileage.
I don't think it would make any sense for me to trade in my Explorer for a Prius, or any number of other fuel efficient cars. It's paid for. Unless gas goes to about $20 a gallon my gas guzzler would be cheaper.
July 29, 2008 at 6:46 am
For the record: 1 US gallon = 3.78541178 liters. Google it.
Here in Sydney (Australia) we're paying between $1.50 (regular) and $1.80 (premium) per liter. So that's about AUD$6.50 per US gallon. Converting Australian dollars to American Pesos (love saying that) gives me roughly USD$6.15 per gallon. I'll happily take the $4 per gallon Steve is paying. Of course, many cars on US roads are large V6's and V8's so high fuel costs are partially self-inflicted. But here's the thing: everyone's fuel prices are high. You either have to deal with it or abandon the car.
Get this: 34K miles is about 1.4x the Earth's circumference (at the equator). Surely you don't expect to cover that much ground for nothing??
James Stover, McDBA
July 29, 2008 at 6:51 am
I just watched An Inconvenient Truth a few weeks ago and Al Gore showed a graph of automobile fuel economy in different countries; the U.S. was dead last by a long shot. Average was somewhere around 24 mpg or something like that, but 48 mpg in other countries. I'm curious, what are the gas mileages for the cars being driven in other countries?
To start, I'm in the U.S. and get 48 mpg with my Prius.
July 29, 2008 at 6:54 am
I came across an EPA gas mileage booklet at a car dealer earlier this year. It showed the EPA estimates for all 2008 cars, broken out by class (compacts, mid-size, SUVs, etc). It was while reading that booklet that I became aware of the lower fuel mileage for ethanol vehicles (I had never thought about before)
Per the EPA, ethanol fueled cars get about 20-30% lower gas mileage due to the lower heat content of ethanol. Here is their website and it has a lot of information on it.
There is a link on the main page to 'gasoline-ethanol' vehicles. It shows mileage while running ethanol versus running gasoline for the same vehicle.
So for ethanol vehicles, it comes down to a 'total' cost calculation using the gas mileage and price/gallon for ethanol versus gasoline (a previous poster pointed this out as well).
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it!;)
July 29, 2008 at 6:55 am
Damn!
so my Yaris is getting about 91 miles per US gallon?
So why does my wallet still hurt so much...:)
July 29, 2008 at 7:02 am
My car gets about 19 mpg, but I drive so little that I've had to fill the tank (from the halfway mark) three times in the last year. So, no real expense there.
My wife's car gets about 25 mpg, and with our 1-mile commute (I walk sometimes), we've had to fill the tank about every 6 weeks. Again, not very expensive.
I spend more on high-speed DSL than I do on gas, per month.
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July 29, 2008 at 7:06 am
Timothy (7/29/2008)
...showed a graph of automobile fuel economy in different countries; the U.S. was dead last by a long shot.
Yes, but where else in the world can you get a car that has 400 horsepower and goes 0 to 60 in 4 seconds?
I'm not sure why you need that or what good it will do while sitting in the traffic that is prevalent in most larger US cities, but you can have it (and the gas mileage that goes with it).
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it!;)
July 29, 2008 at 7:11 am
Could be worse - I had a motorcycle that did about 15 mpg...
And people being people I suspect will only start to take action when it hits their pockets.
It's not just your commute thats hit, its the price of goods in the shop.
July 29, 2008 at 7:12 am
Are we talking the same size gallons here? 1 imperial gallon = 1.2 US gallons. Which makes most of the conversions from UK-US prices a little better, but not by enough 🙂
Here in the UK, the government has long been talking about implementing various road pricing schemes involving the installation of complex infrastructure to track vehicle movements & is also about to overhaul road tax to introduce many more (and more expensive) bands depending on how polluting your vehicle is.
The rise in fuel prices exposes the schemes for the over-complicated fudges they really are: if the government seriously wants to reduce traffic volumes & make sure people pay in proportion to the amount of pollution they produce by far the most straightforward way would be to abolish road tax & increase fuel duty. The amount you'd pay would then be automatically linked to the efficiency of your car, how busy the roads you travel on are & how many journeys you make.
The government could save a packet on the bureacracy involved in adminstering road tax and wouldn't have to pay for vehicle tracking systems or for consultants to indulge in endless studies into which roads need pricing & at what levels. The savings could then either be passed back to motorists, or used to pay for more useful things like hospitals.
But then simplifying things & avoiding unnecessary expense is hardly the job of governments is it?
July 29, 2008 at 7:12 am
Someguy (7/29/2008)
Some questions:1) I hear that the batteries in a typical hybrid need to be replaced around 80k - it that true? If so, it completely outweighs the gas savings, even at today's prices. Might be a better bargain in the UK (sorry you guys, filling a tank must hurt a lot over their...)
Anyway, in order for the hybrids to be truly economical, the battery has to last the life of the car, or get a lot less expensive.
2) For the diesel people; do people still have problems with the fuel gelling up in cold weather? I'm in the northeastern US, and my friends with diesels have told some sad stories of their car dying halfway to work on cold days. If you're in the south, no problem.
My problem: I bought a smaller-sized SUV back when gas was still around $2.00 a gallon. I get around 20 mpg. Now that gas is at $4.00, the price hurts, but it doesn't hurt anywhere near as badly as selling my now-unpopular vehicle at a loss and buying something else that has different but still significant problems. Forgive me for being one of those boorish american skeptics, but I'm afraid I don't buy into the carbon footprint hype. For me, it's more personal economics. I'm open to alternatives as long as they're price competitive.
I actually looked into replacing my RX-8 with the honda Hybrid. They say in all the marketing details that the batteries will last the life of the vehicle.
The actual cost of the vehicle i thought was very reasonable apprx £15 - 19K whilst being able to acheive 61 mpg. certainly beat my rx-8 which around town achieves 17 - 19 mpg.
July 29, 2008 at 7:23 am
From another Denver area driver: I don't bother with Flex Fuel or Hybrids. I've got a Euro version SMART car that gets 40 MPG + in the city! On trips to the mountains I can get 60+ MPG, and straight highway 70+ MPG. That's from a plain gas (mind you I do have to use premium gas which is not cheap) engine. Of course, as with anything there are trade offs, one is size. One way the car gets such exceptional mileage is because it is small, very small, and light weight. This means that there is plenty of room for two people, but not much room for much else. For commuting this is not a problem, do you really need four seats and a trunk every day? For those times in Denver where we actually see winter snows, I've got a gas guzzling Envoy ready to go!
July 29, 2008 at 7:43 am
I have only seen one station here in the Dallas, TX area that sells ethanol. To my surprise, it was only $0.50 (read 50 cents) cheaper than unleaded. Hardly worth the effort in my mind.
My vehicles, both minivans, don't do well on mileage (and I can't replace them any time soon :crying: ). Fortunately, my wife doesn't do much driving but I still have a 50 mile round-trip commute for work each day. At an average of 14 MPG around town, I started looking for ways to improve. I started hypermiling and improved my mileage to 21-22 MPG. See http://www.cleanmpg.com/ for information and instructions on hypermiling.
I also started using a fuel additive and it appears to be adding another 1-2 MPG. Jury is still out on this one but it is really hard to tell at this time of year since I can't turn the A/C off (105F was our record high temp yesterday). Other folks using this additive are seeing 2-5 MPG (some more) improvements. I can say it has already improved performance in my engine and the hesitations I was experiencing on a regular basis are now gone. I would be happy to provide information on this to anyone interested (not including it here since I don't feel a sales pitch is appropriate for this venue).
July 29, 2008 at 7:52 am
OK,
you're all being kind to me aren't you?
Of course I screwed up the UK to US gallon conversion - put it down to an un-airconned office with temps of 80F..please?
I've noticed throughout this discussion that no one has mentioned the real reason for the currently high fuel costs - speculative buying by financial institutions to try and make up for their cockup in the mortgage markets.
A US Senate committee recently reported that oil is overpriced by as much as 30% because of their actions.
Comments?
July 29, 2008 at 8:01 am
At least one part of the reason cars in other parts of the world than the US get better mileage is that they are smaller and more streamlined and built for fuel efficiency. When I travel to Europe, I don't see nearly as many massive trucks and minivans, almost everything looks like what we in the US would consider the "economy" car like a Focus. They also use a much higher proportion of standard transmissions there, whereas here we have now almost two generations of people where most have never driven anything but an automatic.
My own commute isn't awful, about 10-15 miles or so, and I drive a VW Beetle that gets about 25mpg or so, though I've not calculated it in awhile. I could have gotten better mileage had I bought the diesel model, but the smell of diesel nauseates me and I just couldn't stomach it. My honey drives a Sion xB which reportedly is far more fuel efficient than the hybrids even (and doesn't have the battery-production pollution issue) AND it fits the kids and a bunch of stuff. I don't know exactly what the mpg on it is though.
Personally, I think the solution isn't lowering gas prices but lowering our dependence on personal transport. It isn't a coincidence that most of the places that have expensive gasoline (and our gas in the U.S. is cheap comparatively) also have extensive mass transportation systems. People who live in New York, Boston, SF Bay don't have nearly as many cars because taking mass transit is not only viable, it's a darn sight more convenient most of the time (finding a place to park, paying for it, dealing with traffic is much more of a hassle than walking a few blocks to the metro station and a few blocks to the destination when you get off.)
Unfortunately most cities in the U.S. (especially mine, Houston) don't have any decent mass transit and the amount of time it takes to get from point A to point B on mass transit far exceeds what a reasonable person on any sort of schedule would accept. Thus cars are the only currently viable option unless you move right near where you work, which is in most cases either undesirable or economically unfeasible.
It's a chicken and egg problem - we won't convince the government to fund massive mass transit projects until they are convinced people will use it, but people won't flock en masse to mass transit until it is pervasive enough that they don't lose too much convenience by it. Someone's got to bite the bullet somewhere though, or the number of cars on the road will continue to rise with the number of people being bred and the fuel shortage will get worse and worse.
So, although it stinks for personal budgets NOW, I do not advocate lowering gas prices. I'd like to see them higher, so people will start insisting we get some decent mass transit in the rest of our country.
(/soapbox)
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