November 13, 2011 at 9:53 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item The Industry Problem
November 13, 2011 at 9:57 pm
The way I heard it, is kids who in high school get really excited by technology, and join the robotics club or "mouse squad" or electronics club or whatever, get to college and are immediately slapped down by the intense math courses in STEM programs... and lose their interest. The comments on the article you linked alluded to this but didn't quite say it this broadly. Apparently some colleges are aware of the negative impact of this and are thinking on how to address it.
November 14, 2011 at 4:33 am
Back in the 'old days' when there weren't STEM courses, most of us had quals in other subjects. Mine was Politics, Political Philosophy and Economics but oddly most of my comtemporaries had Geography degrees if they had a degree at all. We seemed to end up in computing because we could think 'outside the paper bag' i.e. bring some sort of lateral thinking to a problem. I did once get a job because I was 'that girl with a Maths A level'.
The recent graduates I've met don't seem to be able to bring a broader aspect to an issue. They seem to follow a set path and, when that doesn't work, they are stumped i.e if it isn't logical it cannot be right. Life isn't logical and neither, I swear, is computing. Perhaps it is the way they are taught?
I recently asked for a 'Retired Members Forum' (which has been set up) for those of us who have stopped working for a living but not stopped thinking. I also hoped for interest from the younger end of the profession who were stumped by older legacy systems which are prone to the eccentricities of those early programmers.
Perhaps I should have asked for it to be called 'Old Codgers' ?
Madame Artois
November 14, 2011 at 6:37 am
Thanks Steve for yet another link to a very interesting article.
Years ago, computer shops divided responsibilities. You had systems analysts and business analysts. They drew up the plans, the 'programmers' implemented the plans. In this model, only the analysts really needed to know the business. If the programmers understood the business, great. If not, no big deal. The programmers needed to do things like write in binary; something usually only understood by math majors.
Today, we have 'software developers'; people who know it all. The number of jobs for pure analysts has been decreasing for a long time now. Hence, developers need to be people who understand business. The number of computer jobs that require high-level math, or even deep understanding of computer circuitry are few and diminishing. If it's possible to draw up a spec and pass it on to someone who doesn't understand your business, there are hoards of overseas consultants waiting to implement designs for a fraction of the pay that Americans want.
The previous posts about education have it right. Kids in high school play with high-level functions on computers like Lego robotics, simple animation, and other things that anybody could learn by reading a book in the "Dummies" series. Because they hang around with computers, they're branded as geniuses. They get to college in a STEM degree program though and get difficult math and engineering courses thrown at them - There they either lose interest or just don't make the grade. That's why the line share of IT jobs are filled with people whose minds understand business principles more than by people who understand differing theories of how memory should be managed on the processor chip.
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November 14, 2011 at 6:45 am
Good editorial, good article.
I think two bits sum it up. The statement that people with CS degrees often don't know what they really need to do, and the statement that colleges are losing people partway through STEM programs. 2+2=4 pretty clearly. The programs aren't preparing people for work, and the students quite possibly realize this partway through.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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November 14, 2011 at 6:45 am
S Hodkinson (11/14/2011)
I recently asked for a 'Retired Members Forum' (which has been set up)Perhaps I should have asked for it to be called 'Old Codgers' ?
Perhaps an even better name would have been "Wisdom". You do not gain wisdom by going to school. You gain it by life. I would recommend changing the name, but change it to something that is inviting to Non-retireds to come and look for answers. Probably not having too many articles about AARP memberships would be beneficial too. 😀
I think what has been said is very true. Being able to think is more important than knowing the way "it should be". I was a music major first (until I added the computer Science major). Techniques I learned from my Dad, a hardware store owner, have also been helpful in solving issues I have faced in the technology field. I think my "classical" training in CS is helpful in methodology, something I see lacking in non-CS people at times, but it is not the end all. I agree that graduating a high number of STEM kids, without the knowledge of life, isn't really that helpful. You need to be smart, but smart means many things.
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Livin' down on the cube farm. Left, left, then a right.
November 14, 2011 at 6:54 am
Although I graduated with a CS degree over 7 years ago, I can see how it doesn't necessarily mean that I would be suitable for this kind of work. A lot of the courses were teachning math or programming techniques (with a couple of non STEM courses thrown in as filler) but it was also possible for someone to barely make it through the degree. I recall one student who couldn't program at all and was bewildered at how he made it to 4th year. It's possible he was capapble of doing the straightforward stuff and then on group assignments where this lateral thinking is required, he was one of those who didn't contribute much while the one or two sharper ones on the team spelled out what he needed to do. Then again, it's what you see in the real world as well. There's some sharp people who can see and plan and others that can do grunt work.
I've learned most of what I need to do while on the job, although the CS degree gave me great preparation for it (how to read grammar, statistical analysis, programming theory, database theory, etc). But that doesn't mean that someone who is sharp but studied something else couldn't excel at this either. One of my coworkers studied fine arts. He's really sharp and excels at his current job since he's learned how to do it on the job. But you know what? That fine arts degree means that I go to him when I need help making a report look good whereas he comes to me when he needs some help on an algorithm or database design. Diverse educational backgrounds makes us a stronger team, no doubt about it.
The people you find who didn't study CS but are really sharp would move into a technological career because they're smart and this is where you find the tools required to really use it. Whereas someone who goes into a CS degree because they think it will get them a great job when they graduate but isn't quite as sharp will likely get into the industry but they may not excel.
November 14, 2011 at 7:25 am
For whatever reason I have found that most of the most creative IT professionals have a degree in a non-STEM subject, if they even have a degree at all. I have known good STEM IT professionals, and on the occasional topic, such as octagonal numbers or some such, you could see the occasional advantage of their degree. Had I studied computer science in school, it would have almost no applicability to today's technology. That I learned to think through difficult problems has been much more useful to my IT career. And outside my IT career as well.
November 14, 2011 at 7:56 am
I really take personal offense at the phrase in the editorial:
"It also seems that many of the people I've met with CS degrees are often those that make he most mistakes in real world software development or system administration."
When I decided to get into the field, I went and got a graduate degree in computer science. It wasn't easy. After taking a few courses I applied for a development job. They gave me a test in C++ and because of my course in graduate school, I aced the test. They then told me I would need to learn VB, so I picked up a book and learned the language. I worked fulltime during the day and went to school at night. I graduated with honors and I continue to learn and work hard to this day. Later on I became a DBA as well and I believe that my foundation in learning helped me. I am known in the office as the person who makes the least mistakes. To say that people with degrees make the most mistakes is ridiculous and not based on fact. By the way when you stated it in your editorial you misspelled the word "the".
November 14, 2011 at 7:57 am
My thoughts:
http://nebrasql.blogspot.com/2011/11/industry-problem-according-to.html
Thanks for a great article as usual Steve!
November 14, 2011 at 8:26 am
That's what I call a good editorial.
There's too much emphasis on having learnt relevant technology these days, and not enough on having learnt to think and having learnt effective learning techniques (you have learnt something effectively only if you can both employ it in a situation for which none of your learning prepared you and bend it utterly out of shape to make it applicable in cases where the unbent form isn't).
People with non-STEM degrees (or no degrees at all) are fine in computing. They can generally learn the maths if they need it (some people with STEM degrees can't - if they weren't spoon fed it at college they will never learn it, and it's pretty rare for a first degree or even a masters in maths to include any type theory at all, or queuing theory, or anything about computational complexity, or enough logic and recursive function theory to understand the limits of different kinds of finite automata, or cryptographic hash functions or .. I won't go on, but those are the sorts of things I've had to understand to do my job as a developer and that I've taught when need be to musicians and classicists who decided they wanted to be in computing). Many people with CS or IT degrees learnt nothing useful at all at university.
I am of course very happy with someone who have learnt CS or IT in a decent university (someone who did a DPhil at Oxford's PRG, for example) but a lot of CS graduates did not study at a decent university and have not been taught how to think, they've been taught to do for-credit coursework and pass exams. Often they can recite details of C++ syntax inside out and back to front, but can't write a non-trivial program to save their lives, and have no clue about the computational complexity of algorithms or how that is affected by their input data; or perhaps instead they can recite the details of an incredibly large number of Java's assorted libraries, but struggle to write a simple hello world. Degree courses that teach almost nothing but programming in a really awful language, and teach even that badly without giving the students a clue as to how and why the language designers reached the design that they did, are someting I hate; decent universities load CS courses up with things like type theory, styles of programming language, operational and declarative semantics, various multi-valued logics, relational theory and normalisation, network design, properties of protocols, compilation and interpretation methods, performance modelling, simulation, and useful things like that, plus a bit or programming or a bit of circuit design to bamboozle the HR types with when they look for a job; all the things that a music graduate or a geography graduate or a high school graduate will take in his stride when/if he needs to learn them but most people with an IT or CS degree will never understand because they think CS or IT is all about the syntax of C++ or Java or SQL or even Dartmouth Basic. I guess it's possible to teach CS and IT graduates from the not so good schools these things too, provided they ever realise that their degrees don't mean that they know it all already.
Tom
November 14, 2011 at 8:31 am
I think part of the problem with the lack of people going into CS majors is that the industry has done a very poor job of selling itself. We all hear of the long hours, weekend work, and outsourcing. This, on top of the fact that many of the required courses are difficult and don't really apply to work, pushes people away. Why should I work hard and spend a ton of money on a CS degree if the job I want is being sent offshore? Granted, there are many analysis positions which are still local, but can you name any large companies which don't offshore at least some of their programming and DBA work?
November 14, 2011 at 8:33 am
I have long believed just what you stated in your article. A CS degree doesn't mean you are going to be a great programmer or DBA etc. My degree is actually in Physics. I think it really all comes down to problem solving. As a programmer or DBA you face problems each day. If you have a degree that pushed you to solve problems, difficult problems, I think you can do well in this industry. Since in the end that is what we, or at least I, spend my time doing each day. Solving difficult problems.
Ben
November 14, 2011 at 8:46 am
David Zuckerman (11/14/2011)
I really take personal offense at the phrase in the editorial:"It also seems that many of the people I've met with CS degrees are often those that make he most mistakes in real world software development or system administration."
When I decided to get into the field, I went and got a graduate degree in computer science. It wasn't easy. After taking a few courses I applied for a development job. They gave me a test in C++ and because of my course in graduate school, I aced the test. They then told me I would need to learn VB, so I picked up a book and learned the language. I worked fulltime during the day and went to school at night. I graduated with honors and I continue to learn and work hard to this day. Later on I became a DBA as well and I believe that my foundation in learning helped me. I am known in the office as the person who makes the least mistakes. To say that people with degrees make the most mistakes is ridiculous and not based on fact. By the way when you stated it in your editorial you misspelled the word "the".
I'd say the same thing, that I've run into more CS degrees that were useless than ones that were useful. But still don't take that as something personally offensive to you. I don't know you, so don't have an opinion about your competence one way or the other. I'm sure Steve doesn't either.
It's a general statement "seems that many" != "every single person". Exclude yourself from the "seems that many" set, and you're fine.
Personally, I've had huge problems with the majority of comp sci majors, and huge successes with a minority of them. That's probably true of just about any major: A few shine, the rest napped through classes and got their degrees somehow anyway.
But none of those statements point a finger at you personally.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
November 14, 2011 at 9:01 am
David Zuckerman (11/14/2011)
I really take personal offense at the phrase in the editorial:"It also seems that many of the people I've met with CS degrees are often those that make he most mistakes in real world software development or system administration."
Not sure why you take offense. I didn't say they did, I said that it's often what I've observed. Not a fact, an observation and opinion. So many of recent graduates do get caught up in theory, and with specific syntax they've learned, making mistakes because the real world work is often more complex than what you find in college.
Typo corrected.
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