February 27, 2015 at 7:41 am
RonKyle (2/27/2015)
As a replacement for access?Everyone's talked about the database, but what about the front end developement. What do you use, and how long does it take to make a form? report? I'm interested in trying Express, but I'm not sure how to go about doing the front end work.
Define front end.
SSMS works fine with SQL Server express. I have not tried anything like using SSIS or SSRS to connect to an express version so I don't know if that would work.
We have a number of SQL Server Express installs where I work. They do the job fine up until they hit the size limit. The biggest weakness I have found is with backups. Related to the point above there is no ability to create a maintenance plan. So to back up these databases I use a scheduled task in Windows that calls SQL executable files to kick off backups. It is slightly less convenient, but not by much.
Dave
February 27, 2015 at 7:44 am
Absolutely! I frequently move people from Access to SQL Server Express.
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
February 27, 2015 at 7:49 am
all three of my projects at my last job had aspx front-ends
That would illustrate my point. Access has a niche for which solutions can be developed very quickly. Unless aspx is much easier to use than asp, that wouldn't seem to be the case. The comment about using Access itself as the front it is interesting. But again, when it comes to wrapping it in an application for deployment, is it really easier? I have wanted to understand that better because in my view Access took a big hit when the object level security system was removed. It may not have been the easiest thing to understand, but for those who did, it was easy to make appropriately secure applications. If using SQL Express is the replacement for that, I'd be willing to spend time learning it. But I can't get a definitive answer to why the security changed or what really is supposed to replace it.
February 27, 2015 at 8:30 am
eric.notheisen (2/27/2015)
I agree with Steve in that using express edition may be appropriate to the task at hand. I believe that our job is to solve business problems through automation. I have run into several DBAs and Sys Admins that demand a particular solution to any problem. You know, if you need a hammer a sledge will do.:-DFor example, I was the applications architect on an E-Commerce project for a large insurance company. I needed a server for the purposes of testing the application. I was able to source an IBM and a Dell server for about 1,000 dollars. The Systems Architect would not approve any thing other than an HP DL380 which cost about 4,000 dollars at the time. This kind of thinking is pervasive in large enterprises and is very short sighted.
We need to always consider the actual needs of our customers. If all they need is an Excel spreadsheet for a database give them that instead of a solution that feeds our egos.
I want to support what Eric has articulated. It's all about the soft budget constraints and risk-aversion of the decision makers in large bureaucracies. It is easier to defend a business case of procuring a full-blown server (who wold bother a $100 cost project?;)) then to seek for a low-cost but riskier solution, possibly requiring some customizing.
Exactly the case of my previous employer, large multinational manufacturer:)
Best,
Constantine.
February 27, 2015 at 9:02 am
mail 81157 (2/27/2015)
eric.notheisen (2/27/2015)
I agree with Steve in that using express edition may be appropriate to the task at hand. I believe that our job is to solve business problems through automation. I have run into several DBAs and Sys Admins that demand a particular solution to any problem. You know, if you need a hammer a sledge will do.:-DFor example, I was the applications architect on an E-Commerce project for a large insurance company. I needed a server for the purposes of testing the application. I was able to source an IBM and a Dell server for about 1,000 dollars. The Systems Architect would not approve any thing other than an HP DL380 which cost about 4,000 dollars at the time. This kind of thinking is pervasive in large enterprises and is very short sighted.
We need to always consider the actual needs of our customers. If all they need is an Excel spreadsheet for a database give them that instead of a solution that feeds our egos.
I want to support what Eric has articulated. It's all about the soft budget constraints and risk-aversion of the decision makers in large bureaucracies. It is easier to defend a business case of procuring a full-blown server (who wold bother a $100 cost project?;)) then to seek for a low-cost but riskier solution, possibly requiring some customizing.
Exactly the case of my previous employer, large multinational manufacturer:)
Best,
Constantine.
From my point of view, us experts offer up the options highlighting the pros and the cons so that others can make an informed choice.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
February 27, 2015 at 9:20 am
eric.notheisen (2/27/2015)
...For example, I was the applications architect on an E-Commerce project for a large insurance company. I needed a server for the purposes of testing the application. I was able to source an IBM and a Dell server for about 1,000 dollars. The Systems Architect would not approve any thing other than an HP DL380 which cost about 4,000 dollars at the time. This kind of thinking is pervasive in large enterprises and is very short sighted.
Been there! I spec'd a big Dell server for a 2008 deployment, it was to become our master server (except for the ERP/CRM system) and I set up multiple instances on it, it ran really nice. I specified a single quad-core CPU and SQL 2008 Enterprise. The guy who wrote the PO thought it was silly not to put in a second CPU for $250.
As far as I know, they still are not correctly licensed.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
February 27, 2015 at 9:26 am
I have no problem with Express edition. Over the years I've developed scripts and batch files for running DBCCs backups against it via the Win OS scheduler and that's worked just fine, my Perl job would collect them all for easy review. Most of the time they had lightweight things running against it, like a Cisco VoIP switch that used Express as its management system.
The size limit has not been much of a problem, I can only think of two systems in the past that I've worked on that were bigger than 10 gig: the CRM/ERP system and a log monitor that consolidated all of the logs of every Windows server that we had. My current project I'll be surprised if it hits a single gig within 5 years. I'd be more concerned about the memory limit.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
February 27, 2015 at 9:51 am
patricklambin (2/27/2015)
Hi Steve ,You are right in your editorial but I am feeling that I have to report some points that it is possible you forgot ( coming from my participation to the MSDN/Technet SQL Server forum since its start in 2005 ).
1 - the limit of 10 GB for the size ( to compare with the 2 GB in 2005 at the launch ) must be moderated with the support of the FILESTREAM feature. I recognize that this feature may be tricky in use , especially during the developement of the application in .Net , but , with some précautions , it's feasable easily.
I hadn't considered this, but that's interesting. I assume the Filestream container isn't included in the 10GB limit, which could be really interesting. I really like Filestream, and this could be a great way to store some data beyond the 10GB size.
February 27, 2015 at 9:58 am
graham.mcphee (2/27/2015)
From a licensing point of view are you allowed to use the SQL express edition in a production environment?
Yes. The license allows for redistribution or embedding.
February 27, 2015 at 10:18 am
thottle (2/27/2015)
...One of the restrictions Steve did not mention is that Express, under license, cannot be used for an outward facing web site...
I believe that this was the case but I cannot find evidence that it still is. Does anyone?
Microsoft say:
Build web and mobile applications for multiple data types
Support structured and unstructured data while storing business data with native support for relational data, XML, and spatial data. Add geographical information to business applications and build location-aware applications. Increase granularity of temporal data with date and time data types.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
February 27, 2015 at 10:29 am
If the 10GB online storage limitation is not enough to contain reference or historical data, then there are options to link to the data externally. Access will be slow, and you'll have to jump through some hoops getting it to work (turning on 'Ad Hoc Distributed Queries', granting file access to service account, and adjusting something in DCOM), but you can leverage OPENROWSET() to query records from external CSV or SS Compact Edition files. The resultset can even be joined with SS Express Edition tables.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
February 27, 2015 at 10:35 am
Xavon (2/27/2015)
My company uses Express on remote terminals (a couple hundred of them) that replicate up to Enterprise edition on our main server.
I've seen this, though not as often as I think we should.
February 27, 2015 at 10:36 am
RonKyle (2/27/2015)
As a replacement for access?Everyone's talked about the database, but what about the front end developement. What do you use, and how long does it take to make a form? report? I'm interested in trying Express, but I'm not sure how to go about doing the front end work.
you could still use Access as the front end. You can do more, and it's certainly work. Be nice to get a small framework here for people to use. I bet there are some, or maybe someone would drop one on Codeplex.
February 27, 2015 at 10:40 am
Gary Varga (2/27/2015)
thottle (2/27/2015)
...One of the restrictions Steve did not mention is that Express, under license, cannot be used for an outward facing web site...I believe that this was the case but I cannot find evidence that it still is. Does anyone?
Microsoft say:
Build web and mobile applications for multiple data types
Support structured and unstructured data while storing business data with native support for relational data, XML, and spatial data. Add geographical information to business applications and build location-aware applications. Increase granularity of temporal data with date and time data types.
My reading of the 2014/2012/2008 licenses from here doesn't see a restriction: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/confirmation.aspx?id=29693&useDLM=true
I see this:
Right to Use and Distribute. If you comply with the terms below:
•You may copy and distribute the object code form of the software (“Distributable Code”) in programs you develop;
•You may combine the object code form of the Distributable Code with your programs to develop a unified web solution and permit others via online methods to access and use that unified web solution, provided that the Distributable Code is only used as part of and in conjunction with your programs; and
•You may permit distributors of your programs to copy and distribute the Distributable Code as part of those programs.
February 27, 2015 at 10:42 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (2/27/2015)
Xavon (2/27/2015)
My company uses Express on remote terminals (a couple hundred of them) that replicate up to Enterprise edition on our main server.I've seen this, though not as often as I think we should.
Definitely a very viable and reliable solution. We've been using it in over 100 remote locations for over 6 years and it's extremely reliable.
Just make sure you have reliable data-purge, Windows Task initiated as there's no SQL Agent. We're still on SQL2005 in several places, despite its end of life in a few months. At just 4GB, it's still been good enough for data collect-store-and-forward.
Our Support Team gets on well with it, too, lowering cost of support.
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