September 17, 2015 at 7:31 am
I've never done the renegotiate thing. I've never really left a "permanent" full-time position by choice, it has always happened to me through layoffs. I do know that when I have been considering leaving a position, it has never been about money, it has been about environment and that what I was told I'd be doing or the impact I was told I'd be able to have has not been even close to what is happening.
I'm currently in a position that the financial side of things is great and, for the most part, I work with good people, but, what I was told was expected from me in the interviewing and hiring process and what I've actually been able to accomplish have been 2 very different things. I think I've raised that issue a few times within the company, but maybe not clearly enough. This editorial comes at a good time as I have been looking and I do anticipate my current company not wanting me to leave, if I find an opportunity that I'd accept. I don't think there is anything that my current employer to do to entice me to stay because I've been told multiple times that "things are going to change" and I've yet to see that change get to my level, so why would I believe it now. I do think things will change at my current employer, once the wave of people they hired over the last 18 months are all fed up and have left, so I still think that, if I leave, I'll have made things better for the next group.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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September 17, 2015 at 7:43 am
Something to think on is that while some managers/companies are cheap, they also have a fiduciary responsibility to manage costs. It's rare for a manager to give an increase 'just because' because their boss wants them to hold the line...unless there is a reason. Losing an employee always sucks, it's almost always cheaper to pay more than suffer the loss, so then your manager can fight for the increase with something they get.
September 17, 2015 at 7:46 am
Jack, that's a tough spot, and not uncommon. I think many companies want to be better than they are, but can't make the leap - lack of will, money, support, something. If you think of path between here and what you want/they promised, is there a first step you can envision that would start the journey? Sometimes people/teams overwhelmed by trying to do it all at once, even though it's hardly ever all at once.
September 17, 2015 at 7:53 am
Jeff, I'll disagree on it being stupid. We all get to decide what's right for each of us of course, no arguing that. In my experience it's fairly common for good people making good salaries at good jobs to get offers/invitations when they aren't looking. From a family/business perspective I see no reason not to listen if someone wants to hire me. Lots of intangibles involved, but let's say they offer me a $20k raise. Do I say no just because I wasn't looking? Say no even though $20k would benefit my family? So I think on it and think, all in all this is "better" than what I'm doing now. I don't think that's unfair is it?
Then you tell the boss you're leaving. At this point you can say "I've decided", but what if the boss is persistent? Says "I dont want to lose you, tell me what it would take to make you stay". Here's a manager that you see as treating you fairly before you got the call, treating you fairly now? Do you get mad - now - that he didnt value you that much the day before?
This is market pressure, and all markets react in some way. The point of my editorial wasn't (at least in this one!) to suggest using offers as a stick, just to get you thinking about what happens after you get the external offer.
September 17, 2015 at 8:46 am
If you are looking, then you already know its time to move on.
Still, if you absolutely feel the need to try to negotiate with your current boss before you leave, do not tell them that you have another offer. Just approach it like any typical job upgrade discussion. Why are you asking now - because you think it is long over due.
Most, but not all bosses think they are the reason success happens. And you already know if you have one of the rare bosses that think it takes a team.
The more you are prepared, the less you need it.
September 17, 2015 at 10:19 am
I have recruiters contact me at least once a week. Of those, probably 3-5 per month are good fits for my experience/skillset.
My job I'm at now is really good. My co-workers are cool, my boss is cool, the big boss is cool, the environment is laid-back, and what they expect is work done well...i.e.- in a decent timeline and done accurately.
However with that said, I have real life circumstances that might dictate my looking to move to take care of my elderly parent who is talking about moving back where I grew up.
Fortunately, I have a former job there where the my former IT manager and my former supervisor both want me back. I enjoyed working there immensely, and (to be honest) my supervisor there would be looking to retire in the near future. So, I'd be looking at probably moving out of the active developer seat and moving more into a supervisory/management role with some DBA/project admin duties...and it pays a bit more than here, but the benefits aren't nearly as nice as what I have.
Even though the pay here is almost as good and the benefits are great and the people are really cool, I think family trumps all that. The parent is not able to manage by himself, and my siblings would be close enough that they'd come and take advantage of him and "sweet talk" him into things he can't afford for himself. So, I need to watch after him and be there for him.
As well, I'd be closer to my niece and her family. Plus, I'd be a couple hours from my best friend whom I've only gotten to see about six times in the past 15 years because of the massive distance and life circumstances that kept us from visiting.
But yeah, I can see the problems with managing decisions when it comes to careers. If the boss here offered me a lot more money would I stay? Only if I could somehow talk the dad into being here. Otherwise, I'd have to be where my father is for his benefit.
Sometimes you have to sacrifice things for yourself for the betterment of those you love.
September 17, 2015 at 11:58 am
Jeff Moden (9/16/2015)
I've always thought this whole process was a bit, um... well... stupid. If you're not happy with your job, etc, yadda, yadda, then you should be talking about it long before a buddy or recruiter makes a suggestion. If you had a person working directly for you, that's the way you'd want it. Yes, I agree that there are some jobs that you should probably quit today but most aren't like that."The answer is always 'NO' until you ask". 😉
I don't know, Jeff. I kind of disagree. I've been in job situations in which you don't dare talk about not being happy, even if you are. Talking like that, in those jobs, was enough for them to show you the door that instant. Since then my motto has been, keep your mouth shut. Never say anything negative about the job.
That's just my motto. As always, YMMY.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
September 17, 2015 at 1:39 pm
In the past 5 job changes, I've been extended counter offers in 2. I rejected them both.
The first counter offer was a substantial raise, but I was miserable in the position and there were a lot of significant dysfunctions in the organizational culture. I took a significant step down in pay, but had a much higher quality of life for the next couple years and was able to expand my skills in a new role.
The second wasn't necessarily monetary, but the management tried to trot out large future payouts (I had been given a small equity share as part of signing on to the firm). However, I didn't believe it as the scenarios presented to me indicated holdings that not only were not in writing, but had never been mentioned. When I pressed for those percentages to be committed to in writing, it never happened. It did however give me pause, as the amounts (if they ever were to be paid) would have been truly life changing. Regardless, I thought about how I would take it if I hung on for another several years only to get short-changed.
In both cases, I fully planned to (and did) leave. My experience indicates that people do in fact take an employee's desire to leave personally. I had also brought up things I thought needed to be changed and that were a source of dissatisfaction, but to the day I left the issues persisted. All of which had nothing to do with money.
They had opportunities to rectify things and opted not to. Sometimes the only thing that anyone notices is if you vote with your feet.
IMHO, accepting a counter offer is a bad idea.
September 18, 2015 at 5:26 am
Interesting topic.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that more money is bad. Plenty of things warrant an increase in pay such as life. For me, it was purchasing a new house, having a kid and then another one. Daycare is expensive, kids are expensive, life is expensive over time. Increases to salary have to be made or it's out the door for a lot of people.
When it comes to offers and counter offers, I think it depends on the reasons for looking elsewhere. If you're looking to leave because you are unhappy, then accepting the counter offer from your employer will by statistics, ultimately end in you leaving the company down the road.
At the end of the day, I think most people need to understand one thing. The business does not own you. They pay you an appropriate wage and you give them appropriate work for that wage. You should always be looking at what you and the business can do for each other in yearly increments so you both feel you are getting a good return on investment. The business obviously receiving solid work from you and the employee receiving a wealth of knowledge, experience, pay or whatever else floats your boat.
After that, everyone should be satisfied enough to part or continue on to the next set of challenges.
September 18, 2015 at 6:34 am
Andy Warren (9/17/2015)
Jack, that's a tough spot, and not uncommon. I think many companies want to be better than they are, but can't make the leap - lack of will, money, support, something. If you think of path between here and what you want/they promised, is there a first step you can envision that would start the journey? Sometimes people/teams overwhelmed by trying to do it all at once, even though it's hardly ever all at once.
Andy,
I realize I'm not in an uncommon position which is a reason I'm also working on trying to be more positive about my current role. While I'm not accomplishing as much as I think I should, I do understand that I'm well-compensated and that the company does provide a lot of nice perks that I'm unlikely to get elsewhere. My nature isn't to look at the positive things so it is easy to be frustrated when there are issues I see that need to be addressed, but aren't, which lead to the same problems time after time.
Back to the editorial, if I was leaving do to some kind of dissatisfaction, it is highly unlikely I'd consider a counter offer, but if I'm leaving because someone contacted me with a good job for more money and money is the only reason I'm leaving, sure I'd consider a counter offer.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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September 18, 2015 at 9:57 am
jaskew 10191 (9/17/2015)
Tried that once. Got a huge raise by staying, then fired after the project was done two months later.Don't trust your boss.
I know someone that had something similar happen. 'Joe' got an offer from another company for more money (je didn't tell me how much more the money was), but his current company countered and he stayed. Turned out they immediately began interviewing for his replacement, hired a person, he trained this person thinking they had hired another DBA to help with the workload. Soon as the new person was trained, they let 'Joe' go. Now the second company was no longer looking for a person, so he was out of a job and no immediate prospects.....and no guarantee another job would pay him as much as he would have gotten if he hadn't taken the counteroffer and stayed.
It all depends on how your current company will take your decision to leave. If you aren't happy, will you be happy with more money? or just delay the leaving? Will the company feel you are holding a gun to their head - give me more money or I leave? In which case, why not give you a temp raise until they get someone to replace you. Or will they take it as; I'm underpaid and all I want is reasonable pay, but if I can't get it here, I need to go elsewhere. Sometimes it all depends on how you've communicated with your company. I was in that place, but it was about a promotion. I let my manager know that I felt others had been promoted over me with less experience and wanted to know what I was doing wrong that I didn't get promoted. After discussion, I was told it was basically seniority. I let him know - politely - that I felt I wasn't being respected for my experience and work; and that I would prefer to stay, but I felt I needed to look elsewhere. They ended up promoting me before I got any other job offers - which was a win for me. Couple years later, I'm still with the company. Difference was, I let them know my I wasn't happy and why; then I discussed my options with them.
-SQLBill
September 18, 2015 at 10:33 am
Rod at work (9/17/2015)
Jeff Moden (9/16/2015)
I've always thought this whole process was a bit, um... well... stupid. If you're not happy with your job, etc, yadda, yadda, then you should be talking about it long before a buddy or recruiter makes a suggestion. If you had a person working directly for you, that's the way you'd want it. Yes, I agree that there are some jobs that you should probably quit today but most aren't like that."The answer is always 'NO' until you ask". 😉
I don't know, Jeff. I kind of disagree. I've been in job situations in which you don't dare talk about not being happy, even if you are. Talking like that, in those jobs, was enough for them to show you the door that instant. Since then my motto has been, keep your mouth shut. Never say anything negative about the job.
That's just my motto. As always, YMMY.
I had to laugh when I read that because you're absolutely right. I've been in such positions and it's definitely not fun. Still, that makes things even more stupid (not the employee but the company). You would think that such companies would tire of lost learning they suffer because of the revolving door such protocols seem to form.
As a bit of a sidebar, I didn't mean to imply negativity. What I meant was that the really good companies that I worked for not only allowed but encouraged helpful feedback (identifying a problem and a possible solution isn't a negative thing, IMHO) or if someone was having a problem so that they could resolve it without losing talent. Again, I agree with you that some companies would take either negatively so you do have to be careful when working for such companies.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 18, 2015 at 10:39 am
Andy Warren (9/17/2015)
Jeff, I'll disagree on it being stupid. We all get to decide what's right for each of us of course, no arguing that. In my experience it's fairly common for good people making good salaries at good jobs to get offers/invitations when they aren't looking. From a family/business perspective I see no reason not to listen if someone wants to hire me. Lots of intangibles involved, but let's say they offer me a $20k raise. Do I say no just because I wasn't looking? Say no even though $20k would benefit my family? So I think on it and think, all in all this is "better" than what I'm doing now. I don't think that's unfair is it?Then you tell the boss you're leaving. At this point you can say "I've decided", but what if the boss is persistent? Says "I dont want to lose you, tell me what it would take to make you stay". Here's a manager that you see as treating you fairly before you got the call, treating you fairly now? Do you get mad - now - that he didnt value you that much the day before?
This is market pressure, and all markets react in some way. The point of my editorial wasn't (at least in this one!) to suggest using offers as a stick, just to get you thinking about what happens after you get the external offer.
Sorry, Andy. I was trying to address a very specific scenario and, instead, made it sound like I thought everything about it was stupid. I agree with what you said above.
In their replies on this thread, Phil Parkin and Beatrix Kiddo picked up on the nail that I was trying to hit and missed.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 18, 2015 at 11:01 am
Jeff, thanks for that, no problem at all.
September 22, 2015 at 7:36 am
Just went through something similar. Accepted the counter offer and now waiting for the new opportunity to come kiss me. The wait is difficult one to deal with and sometimes leaves me more confused then before.
I am ranting now. :angry: It gets on your nerves.
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