September 16, 2015 at 9:21 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item The Counter Offer - Part 1
September 16, 2015 at 10:45 pm
I've always thought this whole process was a bit, um... well... stupid. If you're not happy with your job, etc, yadda, yadda, then you should be talking about it long before a buddy or recruiter makes a suggestion. If you had a person working directly for you, that's the way you'd want it. Yes, I agree that there are some jobs that you should probably quit today but most aren't like that.
"The answer is always 'NO' until you ask". đŸ˜‰
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 17, 2015 at 3:45 am
This subject is an odd one for me. I'm happy in my job, the pay is good, the conditions are good but there's not a lot of 'work' to do at the moment and there's a lingering uncertainty about the future. I don't want to leave but if something came along that caught my eye I'd go for it. If any offers and subsequent counter-offers were made though, there would have to be some careful consideration. As I said, although there are reasons to consider going, none of them are driving me out of the door.
On the other side of that, not getting a job led to a pay rise. I applied for, but didn't get something, that was paying much more than my current position. This indirectly resulted in the company realising that we were underpaid for what we did and giving me and my colleague a raise to closer to market rates. I suppose that could be considered a counter-offer of sorts.
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September 17, 2015 at 4:26 am
I'm with you, Jeff. Using the threat of leaving, directly or indirectly, as a means to increase your salary feels ethically wrong and akin to bribery. If you're leaving, leave, after having negotiated a package with which you are comfortable.
This should allow you to keep the respect of all parties involved & part on good terms.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Martin Rees
You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.
Stan Laurel
September 17, 2015 at 4:29 am
Phil Parkin (9/17/2015)
I'm with you, Jeff. Using the threat of leaving, directly or indirectly, as a means to increase your salary feels ethically wrong and akin to bribery. If you're leaving, leave, after having negotiated a package with which you are comfortable.
I agree. An employer must surely think less of somebody who chooses to stay after receiving a counter-offer? And from the other side, when I've been in that situation it's been a case of too little too late. By then the damage is done, or I wouldn't have been looking to leave in the first place.
September 17, 2015 at 4:36 am
Phil Parkin (9/17/2015)
I'm with you, Jeff. Using the threat of leaving, directly or indirectly, as a means to increase your salary feels ethically wrong and akin to bribery. If you're leaving, leave, after having negotiated a package with which you are comfortable.This should allow you to keep the respect of all parties involved & part on good terms.
Don't get me wrong Phil, there was no intent to threaten or bribe anybody into anything. In fact I totally agree with you that it's wrong. I applied for the new job because the salary was so much greater than I was currently getting that it would have been daft not to, not for any burning desire to get out of my current place. Had I not seen it, I would have been happy to stay where I am getting what I was getting even though it was less than the going rate. I was very lucky that the company gave me the raise.
In fact, that unsolicited raise has put a new rocket under my backside to make sure that I'm worth it. The lack of 'work' and uncertainty meant I was undeniably jaded and finding motivation was hard. Now, I'm re-invigorated and determined to use my time more productively. After all, if they think I'm worth what I am, I'm going to prove it to them.
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September 17, 2015 at 4:47 am
My advice would be never (ok, rarely) accept the counter-offer. My reasoning is this. They've offered this, that and the other to tempt you to stay.
Why was it not on offer before, if you are worth these things? Do you really want to work for an organisation that only treats you right when
you have a gun to their head?
The flip side of this position is that you need to have identified what you want from your current employer, and ask them for it before you go looking outside.
If you get it, that's good. Otherwise, the fact that they have refused you when you didn't have a job offer in your hand demonstrates that they will only
provide as little as they can get away with. That philosophy tempts employees to do the same, which ultimately benefits no-one (OK, it benefits your company's competitors.)
September 17, 2015 at 5:09 am
BWFC (9/17/2015)
Phil Parkin (9/17/2015)
I'm with you, Jeff. Using the threat of leaving, directly or indirectly, as a means to increase your salary feels ethically wrong and akin to bribery. If you're leaving, leave, after having negotiated a package with which you are comfortable.This should allow you to keep the respect of all parties involved & part on good terms.
Don't get me wrong Phil, there was no intent to threaten or bribe anybody into anything. In fact I totally agree with you that it's wrong. I applied for the new job because the salary was so much greater than I was currently getting that it would have been daft not to, not for any burning desire to get out of my current place. Had I not seen it, I would have been happy to stay where I am getting what I was getting even though it was less than the going rate. I was very lucky that the company gave me the raise.
In fact, that unsolicited raise has put a new rocket under my backside to make sure that I'm worth it. The lack of 'work' and uncertainty meant I was undeniably jaded and finding motivation was hard. Now, I'm re-invigorated and determined to use my time more productively. After all, if they think I'm worth what I am, I'm going to prove it to them.
Fear not, my post was not targeting you đŸ™‚
However, I suspect that you will find that the extra motivation induced by the raise will be short-lived: the job is the same and your reasons for not being totally happy will overpower the temporary elation of more cash. Wow, sorry for putting a downer on it, but money can't buy you happiness.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Martin Rees
You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.
Stan Laurel
September 17, 2015 at 5:24 am
Phil Parkin (9/17/2015)
BWFC (9/17/2015)
Phil Parkin (9/17/2015)
I'm with you, Jeff. Using the threat of leaving, directly or indirectly, as a means to increase your salary feels ethically wrong and akin to bribery. If you're leaving, leave, after having negotiated a package with which you are comfortable.This should allow you to keep the respect of all parties involved & part on good terms.
Don't get me wrong Phil, there was no intent to threaten or bribe anybody into anything. In fact I totally agree with you that it's wrong. I applied for the new job because the salary was so much greater than I was currently getting that it would have been daft not to, not for any burning desire to get out of my current place. Had I not seen it, I would have been happy to stay where I am getting what I was getting even though it was less than the going rate. I was very lucky that the company gave me the raise.
In fact, that unsolicited raise has put a new rocket under my backside to make sure that I'm worth it. The lack of 'work' and uncertainty meant I was undeniably jaded and finding motivation was hard. Now, I'm re-invigorated and determined to use my time more productively. After all, if they think I'm worth what I am, I'm going to prove it to them.
Fear not, my post was not targeting you đŸ™‚
However, I suspect that you will find that the extra motivation induced by the raise will be short-lived: the job is the same and your reasons for not being totally happy will overpower the temporary elation of more cash. Wow, sorry for putting a downer on it, but money can't buy you happiness.
Fair enough đŸ™‚ You do make a valid point about the elation being short-lived. I should re-iterate though that I am happy to stay. As I said, I'm not looking for work and I only applied for the other job because of the huge salary uplift that it would have brought. Well, that and working in a National Park rather than a business park.
I should probably also say that my colleague is leaving soon and we'll be going from a team of three to a team of two. That itself will mean more challenges and more to do. I'll be much more involved in Data Warehousing rather than being more focused on the operational reporting so it's going to be a chance to learn and use new skills.
We've also discovered in the last ten minutes that a major project is being resurrected and that too will mean that there is more to do. All in all it could get very busy very soon.
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September 17, 2015 at 6:09 am
Having been an employer and an employee for almost 50 years, I have discovered that accepting a counter offer is counter productive for several reasons.
First and foremost you have communicated that you are willing to leave when the right opportunity comes along. This places you first in line to be the last man or woman standing when musical chairs are played. If you don't have a chair you get to leave.
Second, you may want to work with the recruiter who got you the new position at some time in the future. If you accept a counter offer, that bridge may be burned.
Third, if the reasons for accepting the call from the recruiter leaving were for issues not necessarily for money but money was the deciding factor for accepting the offer, odds are the organization will not change sufficiently for you to be happy after taking the counter offer and you will leave anyway.
Over the years I have seen many people accept counter offers and almost invariably they have left the company within the next 12 months.
Things to consider
September 17, 2015 at 6:48 am
There are cases where this is applicable and justified to take a counter offer or a counter-counter offer.
1. Started when company was much smaller. Smaller companies can't afford to pay high rates (usually) especially if you are not in the first round of a startup. When the company doubles in size, a lot of the employees get forgotten on the salary scale and the managers/employees are embarressed about negotiating for salary. My personal case the company went from 40 employees (of which 10 were devs) to 80 employees (of which 14 were devs) with the same manager over my department of devs. It's really hard to talk to your friend who happens to be the manager about pay. Especially if you have never worked for a large corporation where talking to HR about pay is common place.
In this case an offer presented to your manager spurs them to go "whoa, wait a minute. We need you and we've forgotten about pay due to keeping the company running and growing it." i.e. all the "forward thinking" stuff got in the way. That where the counter-offer is, potentially, a good thing.
Rejecting an offer sent via a recruiter all comes down to how you talk to them. If the offer was a "too good to refuse" and the counter offer is "better than" the offer... you can just explain it that way. Recruiters who take that personnally don't need to be recruiters.
2. In small to mid-sized companies most people are happy to be where they are at. The specific case talked about in the editorial is an interesting one. I've had this happen. A buddy called me up and said "hey, you should talk to X recruiter, they are looking for people with your skills and they pay $YY,YYY!". I wasn't looking. Who has time to go hunting? When you are at least moderately happy to have a daily grind, you forget about looking for anything better until something catches your eye. In this case it wasn't that you were unhappy, it's that you simply didn't know what was out there until someone told you. So when the offer comes in, your boss will likely go "I thought you were happy here". To which a response of "I am, but they've made an offer I can't afford to ignore." which can lead to a discussion of a counter-offer. This is not that you were unhappy, but that the market moved and your company hasn't.
There are other examples that can be had where there is no malice at all. These decisions to look, apply, get an offer, entertain a counter-offer, etc can all be done without ill-will. Of course, it can also be "I'll Never work for this place!" and "I'm leaving before they fire me" or other such issues that have animosity.
September 17, 2015 at 6:51 am
I took an offer once at a new job and worked there a few months before my former boss came to me and offered an insane pay increase that for myself and family I couldn't pass up. I was accused of using my short-term boss as leverage to get a higher salary. It wasn't true and I denied it but what can you do? People think what they think.
September 17, 2015 at 6:53 am
john.riley-1111039 (9/17/2015)
My advice would be never (ok, rarely) accept the counter-offer. My reasoning is this. They've offered this, that and the other to tempt you to stay.Why was it not on offer before, if you are worth these things? Do you really want to work for an organisation that only treats you right when
you have a gun to their head?
The flip side of this position is that you need to have identified what you want from your current employer, and ask them for it before you go looking outside.
If you get it, that's good. Otherwise, the fact that they have refused you when you didn't have a job offer in your hand demonstrates that they will only
provide as little as they can get away with. That philosophy tempts employees to do the same, which ultimately benefits no-one (OK, it benefits your company's competitors.)
Sadly this is all so true.
September 17, 2015 at 7:06 am
Actually, how often does a person leave a company and the only reason is money?
If the money was bad, then you likely would not have taken the position in the first place.
Having just left a company, there really was no amount of money (well, almost!) that could have kept me there. They did ask what it would take to keep me. I told them nothing, but I certainly was thinking lots of really unpleasant things.
I have never made a counter offer to an employee, nor have I ever accepted one.
Were they surprised? Completely. But they shouldn't have been. I expressed the issues repeatedly, in every manner I could, to my superiors. Nothing sunk in. Unfortunately, my leaving caused them to finally consider, and act, about the things I had been telling them for years.
All of these proved to me that I had made the correct decision.
Michael L John
If you assassinate a DBA, would you pull a trigger?
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September 17, 2015 at 7:10 am
Tried that once. Got a huge raise by staying, then fired after the project was done two months later.
Don't trust your boss.
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