October 17, 2007 at 9:56 am
On the subject of degrees: First degree was a B.A. honors in Japanese language and literature, post grad work in Japan, 11 years there in trade and finance. Second degree B.S. in brewery science University of Munich, now the third degree (in progress) is an MBA. All computer skills were self taught, which worked best for me, I think.
October 17, 2007 at 11:00 am
I tried to go for a bachelor's in brewery science, but couldn't get past the practicals/tasting work:D
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
October 19, 2007 at 1:50 am
Umm. First degree was in Biochemistry at a very top university.. Many many years ago.
Enjoyed the maths, loved the quantum mechanics, enthralled by thermodynamics, and was allowed serious computing time - the department loved the fact I wanted to use the Cyber 72 and PDP-11s. Helped them with their computing budget -- and I could fabricate experimental results...And I learnt the true meaning of c on teletypes...
Wore out two slide rules... but biochem wasn't for me... All my best friends were programmers - tried to get a job as a prog, competitive interview, came second out of 400+... Joined scientific civil service, they trained me thoruughly in COBOL.
October 19, 2007 at 2:21 am
There does appear to be huge emphasis on degrees from managers, yet I have people working below me with very heavy degrees who dont have a good career path.
I did 5 years in Army Intelligence (yes an oxymoron, I know!) and then following a brief programming course talked my way into a tech job. 13 years later with a broad & deep background in infrastructure, DB and app design/development, degrees, MCSEs (very out of date) etc are irrelevant.
University does appear to teach some good planning, organising and learning skills as a foundation, but it's not essential. People's ability to handle logic and track problems appears to be inbuilt, if they've got the right logic then they can easily learn the technical bits and succeed.
October 19, 2007 at 2:26 am
I have no degree, my parents could not afford it. My father kept the family together as best he could as the sole wage earner. After age 18 I was given an ultimatum - pay your way or get out! Looking back now I really respect him for all his work and effort. At the time it seemed harsh.
They supported me for 2 years from age 16 to age 18 while I stayed on at school studying A levels. Then I applied for and was accepted on a one year at a Further Education College, there were 16 places and over 120 applicants in the room with me. We were paid only £30 per week living expenses, which I spent fully on public transport and rent to my parents (whcih included food etc., so they did partly support me for a year more than they could fully afford to.)
The course involved 50% study at college, 50% placement in IT departments in various businesses. At least thats what they told me. When the time came the college failed to find workplace palcements for half the group. I phoned around local businesses in my own time and managed to arrange my own workplace placement in a Data Centre at a big company's HQ. When I studied and passed the course I subsequently got a job with where I had done my placement, and stayed for 8 years before moving around in various IT jobs across my county.
So I don't have a degree, but then I did not have opportunity to get one. By the time of life I could afford to fund my own study, I had a family to support so could not fit the time in. I worked hard in my own way to get a career in IT, I have been working constantly for over 20 years. Therefore I do not hold lack of a degree against anyone, but I do see having one as an indicator (but not the only indicator) of a person's ability to learn / study / work. When I am hiring people I take a degree into account, but I also look for relevant skills, experience and attitude.
Lack of a degree has held me back during my career. I do study within the industry when I can, I have ITIL and PRINCE2 quals. It would be easy for me to claim that I was underprivileged by my parent's socio-economic status which held me back compared to other people. It has held me back compared to graduates who automatically started with higher salaries.
October 19, 2007 at 4:15 am
I have a high school diploma and an electronics technician training from the US Navy. Having no college diploma I have a somewhat bitter understanding of the importance of the same, and the often uselessness of the same. The importance is in getting the interview (every time), the uselessness in the workplace is all too often apparent.
I read one time that the university system was really designed by and for the upper class of Europe back in the "dark ages", in order to provide their children with the life skills they needed, which did not include working for a living. they needed cultural skills, wide and broad knowledge of things, not job skills. Select 3 units from category A, 6 units from category B, 4 units of basket weaving, 8 units of music, 9 units of language, 12 units of science, 10 units of math... sound familiar?
Their families already had money and power and their children would not be working. Attending these schools taught them the broad knowledge and also "connected them" to each other, they met their peers. But attending these schools was desired by the lower classes precisely because they were attended by the upper classes (so they must be good). The system propagates itself and continues on today providing in general an education for the upper class but now consumed mostly by the "lower" class, you and I.
As a technician I needed no degree to get that class of work, but to advance past that class of work the lack of a degree was (is) always a stumbling block. I had a somewhat similar educational experience to a poster above, I was a straight A student until my father developed alcoholism and eventually disappeared at which point I took a nosedive from which I did not recover until my junior year of High School at which point to was too late to get a scholastic scholarship. Coming from a tiny town had to leave in order to really do much in life so I joined the military.
From that point (after completing the technical schools) I was a "self taught man", reading books and doing the work to learn new things. However the lack of a degree came into play with every job interview (or lack thereof). I think one of the previous comments said it all, the possession of a degree all too often determines whether we consider it important, and the professional ranks, and thus those doing the interviewing, are filled with those who have one. They tend to fill the positions with those who have one, thus continuing the status quo.
Having learned by reading and doing, do I consider a degree necessary or important? Yes, but not for the reason that those who have one do.
I do not hold with the concept that it shows the determination to finish something. Life is filled with people who have a degree because they
a) came from money and were expected to do it.
b) had no clue what they wanted to do and thus punted.
c) spent 10 years almost getting this degree then switching and almost getting that degree
d) were afraid of life and could continue to not do life by going to school
e) liked to party and who parties harder(?)
f) fill in you own reasons here
g) had determination and drive and knew exactly what they wanted to do and needed a degree to get there.
Going to school is no harder than anything else, it is a learned skill. Being able to excel at school does not indicate much of anything except that you learned the skill of going to school well. Memorizing facts is a learned skill. Taking tests is a learned skill. Schmoozing the instructor is a learned skill. Only the last will have much use later in life.
I think that in general a degree is a useless thing (in the workplace), and in fact can often be a red herring in selecting a qualified candidate but since it is very often used to pre-filter the applicant, it is none the less required to get the job. Sad but true.
OTOH I think that there is very valuable knowledge available in the school system. There are specific things that would be tough to learn "on your own" such as the compiler writing for example. You just need specific knowledge to do that and there are few (non educational system) books on the subject. Not that you could not learn it "on your own", just that doing so would be tougher simply because you don't find a large section in Barnes and Noble on doing so. Skills for the upper management track are probably also tough to learn outside of school, plus upper management is all too often a "who you know" thing and meeting the right people is all about the school you go to.
So what I am saying is that yes, I will push my children toward the university and hope that they do well. It will probably have very little effect on their ability to do the job. It will however have an immense effect on their ability to get the job, and get the next job, and even to climb the management ladder.
Just not for the right reasons.
jwcolby54
October 19, 2007 at 4:21 am
Well said John. I definitelty agree. My children will both have opportunity to go to university if the want, with gentle encouragement from me!
So what I am saying is that yes, I will push my children toward the university and hope that they do well. It will probably have very little effect on their ability to do the job. It will however have an immense effect on their ability to get the job, and get the next job, and even to climb the management ladder.
Just not for the right reasons.
October 19, 2007 at 4:23 am
Yup, its not what you know,
or who you know, or what you know about who you know.
It's what you know about yourself.. I was unemployed for several years, despite a good degree from a top university. Started my own business which unfortunately ran on a not for profit basis. So I learned about myself and what I wanted...
October 19, 2007 at 4:45 am
[font="Tahoma"]I do not have a degree either, but still working on it. I could not afford college right after high school, so I went into the Marine Corps. 4 years later of working on jet engines for the Harrier in the early 80's, I left and worked in a clock manufacturing factory. After a hernia (job related), and two attempts to get into the office, I decided that I needed to get a degree. I went to night school for 6 years, came within 3 classes of getting an associates degree in computer repair. I did get a job as a Quality Assurance inspector for a avionics firm, then after a layoff, found a job in a computer store in their service department.
Left and went to another service job where I got laid off again. I moved out of state, and got a help desk job at a fortune 500 company. I now work as a program tester for a 4 year project within the company.
I applied for a job within the company for a management position and didn't even get an interview because of the lack of degree's. I am working on finishing my associates degree in computers, but with only 1/2 of the credits transferring, its been a long process.
Just my experiences .[/font]
October 19, 2007 at 6:22 am
Having a degree does not imply anything at all, and not having a degree does not imply anything at all.
In fact having a degree means exactly and only one thing, that the person performed the requirements to be given that specific piece of paper. To assume anything else is the equivalent of assuming that "because a person is Asian they are smarter" or "because a person is Italian they are probably a criminal". No one would admit to such beliefs but lots of folks have such beliefs about degrees.
I know a guy who went to school for 10 years because it was paid for (not by him), obtained a degree, and 25 years later does not have a job (and hasn't for years), has never had a career and has no long term goals. He seems to be quite happy BTW.
Sadly, one thing a degree does mean (which says nothing about the person possessing the degree) is that the job application with a degree is less likely to end up in the round file than the application without a degree. That's reality.
jwcolby54
October 19, 2007 at 6:31 am
I am a late bloomer. I have a BA in English and a Master's degree in Public Administration. Happened to get a "temporary job" that I have been doing for almost 9 years that now involves SQL Server 2005. Currently studying for my MCTS in SQL Server 2005.
Steve, SQLServerCentral.com is a great resource for me. I listen to your podcast every morning. Keep up the great work!
-Vincent Miller
October 19, 2007 at 6:40 am
Interesting posts - I'm thankful for this forum!!
I have no college degree, and no certifications. I'm happily self-employed in the IT industry. I don't think a customer has ever asked me whether I have a degree - although every now and then in casual conversation I get asked where I went to school.
Are some doors closed because I don't have the degree? Yes. But... I choose to go to the other doors that are open!!
My guess? Imagine a parallel universe that has everyone who has posted here, but in this universe give each participant the same college experience (or the same lack thereof). I'm guessing that those who have done well in this world would also do well there. Those who have not done well would have the same problem in their 'new' universe. These message threads are evidence!!
It sounds like there are many here who have found job satisfaction and are paying the bills without the college degree (or with the college degree in a totally unrelated field). Hopefully that will give encouragement to those who are reading the posts, maybe some thinking that all along the reason they're not employed/working is because they don't have the degree. I know this sounds terribly pollyanna-ish, but if we tell ourselves that we're at a serious disadvantage lacking a degree, I believe we end up believing it and it plays out its own reality in job interviews. I'm delighted to have found an industry where there is a wealth of free educational material (thanks to guys like Steve) - and where we can control how much we know or don't know!!! A section on a resume that lists accomplishments can speak more than the section listing education, and the great thing about the IT industry, is that you can always find a not-for-profit or small start-up company that can use your services in order to build the accomplishment list. My first official "job" in the IT industry as a self-employed contractor was a low-ball bid for a database conversion. My original time estimate was way off, my bid was ridiculously low, but the customer was very happy and she told others who told others who told others..... and my first 25 cent an hour job (I kid not) has turned into a very decent living!
October 19, 2007 at 6:57 am
I have a BS, MS and PhD in Mathematics. I taught math and computer science at the university level before becoming a developer.
Our shop requires a BS in a "hard" science - specifically a degree that requires 9 hours of calculus. 3 years relevant experience can substitute for the calculus requirement. The directors idea is that the calculus requirement gives him the idea that the person can think analytically and that is the type of person he wants to hire.
Terri
To speak algebraically, Mr. M. is execrable, but Mr. C. is
(x+1)-ecrable.
Edgar Allan Poe
[Discussing fellow writers Cornelius Mathews and William Ellery Channing.]
October 19, 2007 at 6:58 am
I went to college 20 years ago (graduated in '86) with a B.S. in Computer Science. At the time, it was a great help because that was before the internet so we were doing 'hard core' programming (Compilers, Operating Systems, ....)
One of the things I certainly noticed was that I was a completely different person when I graduated. I had grown up quite a bit and reinforced that this was what I wanted to do.
Now, 20 years later, I'm doing .Net development both web and client server plus extensive SQL DB work. At this point my degree is not very relevant but it does show that I did it.
I agree that what the degree is is not so important. Work experience is much more important. One of my friends who is the best programmer I have ever met has a degree in English and is in his late fifties. His co-worker has no formal programming training but is also a phenomenal programmer. So the people are out there - you just have to look for them.
I've also seen the other side of it - people with 'MIS' degrees or 'IT Specialist' degree who don't know squat.
As a friend of mine who is a network sys admin was asked during an interview 'OK. You're Novell certified. But what have you done?'
A degree is important at the beginning when you have nothing to compare against. But once you get some experience, the degree becomes less important.
Jeff.
Old Man of The Programming World. (I programmed before Windows!)
October 19, 2007 at 7:03 am
Grasshopper,
I think you are right about "what you believe fulfilling what you believe".
Back in the 80s I really wanted to do Electrical Engineering, in fact micro processor (uP) design or even design of uP systems. I loved uPs and what could be done with them. However I was a technician with no degree, having to support myself and needed a loooong time to get a degree working part time. I looked at the field and discovered that there were lots of EEs and you couldn't get a job in the field without the degree.
I also observed that a team of engineers designed a micro processor chip, then that same team went on to design the next chip (more or less). I then noticed that the chip that those 10 or 20 people designed was used in a million systems, creating a thousand programming jobs. The EE field was a flat line, the programming field was a sharply curved line (upwards). I could get a job in the software field without the degree simply because of demand.
So I switched from hardware to software and never looked back. Today, 25 years later, you can still get a job in software without a degree, and you still cannot get the equivalent job in hardware without the degree.
And I will still encourage my children to get the degree, just so they can CHOOSE their field without the degree filter applying to them.
jwcolby54
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