October 16, 2007 at 10:51 am
Dad is a pastor too. I feel you. Wouldn't trade my experiences for anything though.
October 16, 2007 at 10:55 am
The absence of a degree does not imply any lack of skill, knowledge, intelligence, or anything else. If it's not there, ignore it and focus on the person's experiences.
A degree proves something, but it's one piece of the evidence.
My wife took 10 years to graduate, going at night and around work with a child. She's probably a better employee and worker than me.
October 16, 2007 at 12:00 pm
I hope I'm not repeating something someone else said here, but I heard a statement one time that made a lot of sense.
College proves that you can complete a large project with (relative) deadlines.
If you get some relevant domain experience, bonus!
October 16, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (10/16/2007)
The absence of a degree does not imply any lack of skill, knowledge, intelligence, or anything else. If it's not there, ignore it and focus on the person's experiences.
I fully agree. I just chafe at seeing it being used all too commonly as one of the "thin the pile" techniques (all of which are arbitrary in some way). I guess I'm more likely to thin out the pile based on other factors, such as sixteen jobs in the last 2 years, a resume containing nothing but buzzwords, or too many or too few. Even then - you're more likely to end up lower in the pile than not at all, unless your total experience doesn't add up/mesh. We did most of our weeding out during phone interviews.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
October 16, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (10/16/2007)
The absence of a degree does not imply any lack of skill, knowledge, intelligence, or anything else. If it's not there, ignore it and focus on the person's experiences.A degree proves something, but it's one piece of the evidence.
My wife took 10 years to graduate, going at night and around work with a child. She's probably a better employee and worker than me.
Hi Steve,
I like your terminology - "one piece of the evidence." Finding out whether someone is a good worker at something is a little like detective work.
I think a formal education can provide things that may be hard to get for most people on their own - but maybe for financial or time reasons rather than skill or desire. Take grammar, for example. A comprehensive formal education is likely to teach a person good grammar. But even assuming that a student does well and works diligently on the grammar itself, grammar is only as good as the writing it is in service of. If someone has perfect grammar but has nothing to say, it almost doesn't matter that they have good grammar. For whatever reason, they lack the substance behind the rules.
Now, that problem could be addressed by a good logic or critical thinking course, or a course in expository writing with a good professor. But those are just some ways to develop the ideas a person has. Someone not formally educated could have received that practice and knowledge in other ways - from a parent or a good friend, or even books plus a lot of late nights at a desk. It just depends on how much a person applied themselves and whether or not they have a desire to learn and perfect certain things (almost everyone has a niche they can find).
IT is more specialized, but I think the above issues still apply. Learning, say, the "grammar" of SQL represents a certain amount of achievement, but it is something that can be gained with or without formal education, and there is still the substance behind the "grammar" that is needed. Just knowing the syntax without knowing why, or knowing normalization but not asking people what the data is used for, etc., is going to get a person in trouble, whether or not they have a college degree saying they are (or should be) qualified to do the job.
webrunner
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A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
October 16, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Interesting posts and all very valid. My 'two cents' worth ....
Degrees like MS certifications show you have the ability to retain, process and hopefully apply information. I have both but don't rest on either. If asked why I don't tote them on a resume. . . . I find that employers tend to focus on those . . (wouldn't mind working for you Steve !!) and rarely understand what they mean.
I would rather work with uneducated people willing and able to learn than those who are so intractable that they are unwilling to...
Just a passing point. Any qualifications gained are a mark of achievement... But they are only the start of a continuing learning journey. If you don't continue to learn they are just so much fading ink & paper hanging on the wall.
CodeOn...:P
October 17, 2007 at 2:17 am
I'm in the UK, so substitute "university" for "college" if it helps...
I did go to university, graduated with a good degree and tried to get a job just when the IT market in england was in a slump. I think my degree hindered me as all I could apply for were "data entry clerk"-style positions. (The only other choice were managerial posts, which I was hopelessly under-skilled for).
In my opinion, uni in the UK has almost become mandatory, (and hideously expensive, but that's another post!). It's a pity as it's a great experience, (in addition to education and learning, you'll normally live away from parents, struggle with a budget and have to do all your own work - I did and I'm grateful for it), but most employers here will require one, or equivalent: that last bit's important.
Actually, it's more important that you do some type of study after leaving school, rather than specifically earn a degree, but a degree is an easy route to go down for most people rather than finding somewhere else.
Personally, I'm more annoyed that my A Levels are largely ignored, when I'm very proud of them. (Even though my best friend still did better than me!).
PS: What's happened to the "# Posts" figure, as I liked seeing how well I was doing?]
October 17, 2007 at 6:43 am
Just adding my 2 cents here...
I have my degree, but to me, the main reason why I went for it in the first place was to say that I have that piece of paper. Watching the job market, I knew that I'd need a piece of paper to really go anywhere (sadly). But to me, it's just a piece of paper saying that I went through my program and reached the goal and knew my stuff when it came to computers back in 2002.
I'm from the school of thought though where a degree shouldn't necessarily be mandatory for a job. Personally, if I saw a person had years of experience and no degree, I wouldn't be quick to write them off. In those years of experience, they most likely had to perform their duties and also learned other things that a school can't teach - like interoffice relationships and office politics.
There's only so much one can learn in school - a lot can be said for on-the-job training.
Most of my friends have their degrees. However, one of my friends does not have his degree. He has a lot of experience with network administration, system administration, and owning his own company. I had passed his resume on to some people, and one of the first things an HR lady told me was "he doesn't have a degree, and the position requires it". It's a shame because he has everything they're looking for. However, since he doesn't have that piece of paper, they aren't looking at him. It's sad how they use it as a filter - when there are so many people out there with the experience that would fill the slot but no degree due to whatever circumstances.
October 17, 2007 at 6:58 am
Paul (10/17/2007)
PS: What's happened to the "# Posts" figure, as I liked seeing how well I was doing?]
The points number under your name is posts+QOTD answers. The only place I know of to see a breakdown of one vs the other is on the "total scores and standings" page under QOTD.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
October 17, 2007 at 7:03 am
It is slightly away from the point of this thread but it would be interesting to know how many people on this site have a degree as well as if the degree is in their career field.
Though, as a survey whose margin for error is wide, in discussing this subject with associates the majority of IT leaders/managers did not have a degree in an IT related area. Only three of 11 had IT field degrees, one had no college, one a technical school degree and the rest had degrees in an array of pursuits Natural Sciences (2), Philosophy (1 the only PhD), Theatre Arts (1), Other Engineering (1) and the final one in Literature.
October 17, 2007 at 9:20 am
I have a BA in Economics. I spent 2 years in CS at the beginning and 2 years in Computer Engineering (grad school), before the career took off.
October 17, 2007 at 9:26 am
Paul G (10/17/2007)
It is slightly away from the point of this thread but it would be interesting to know how many people on this site have a degree as well as if the degree is in their career field.Though, as a survey whose margin for error is wide, in discussing this subject with associates the majority of IT leaders/managers did not have a degree in an IT related area. Only three of 11 had IT field degrees, one had no college, one a technical school degree and the rest had degrees in an array of pursuits Natural Sciences (2), Philosophy (1 the only PhD), Theatre Arts (1), Other Engineering (1) and the final one in Literature.
My degree is in my career field - Computer Science and Engineering Technology. A friend of mine has her degree in Mechanical Engineering and she's been a DBA for a few years now. Of the programmers I do lunch with, we have the following breakdown: 1 Mechanical Engineering, 1 Civil Engineering, and 2 Computer Science. Someone here pursued an English degree and manages to work as a programmer and manager. There definitely is a mix - I'd also be curious to our mix here.
October 17, 2007 at 9:26 am
I have a BA in Public Speaking (minors in History, religion, classical languages and mathematics - amazing the kind of credits you can collect in 6.5 indecisive years). I have post graduate work in medicine and theology.
October 17, 2007 at 9:33 am
Started off in electrical engineering, but switched over and got a BS in Systems Analysis.
My buddy actually got his degree in Finance before getting a job out of college doing VB development and has been doing it ever since.
It is an interesting topic though. When I first started out I always found it interesting to see the number of people with no degree or degrees in non-computer related fields.
October 17, 2007 at 9:52 am
On the topic of welders and such, I work in a factory that employs a number of them, and it is at least as hard to find one capable of the type of work we do as it is to find a good db person.
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