October 15, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item The College Experience
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October 16, 2007 at 6:45 am
I could have said so many things here, but to be objective about it:
College is like having a credit score. There are other things that will give you a score too. When you start out, you don't have a score, until you build some credit. There isn't one way to build credit; however, you have to actively pursue it. When I interview, I look for someone who is ambitious and doesn't just come to work for a paycheck. That's what I see when someone hasn't pursued much.
Another note: I also look for someone who hasn't held the same job for more than four years. The reason is that I have had to change employers ("layoff, downsizing, etc") and have learned new things at each place that I wouldn't have if I stayed. I have also worked for the same company for over seven years, but held four different positions in that time.
Main point: It is a dynamic world, and you have to keep pushing yourself to add value.
October 16, 2007 at 7:24 am
College is extremely important, but not necessarily in the way people expect. A college degree is the new high school diploma. It allows a person to have a wider range of job options at a broader level. But when it comes to IT jobs, it depends on what kind of college education someone gets.
I was not an IT major, so I have had to work extra hard just to catch up as much as I can. Even so, I've seen that many college IT curriculums don't necessarily provide preparation for a lot of real world tasks (especially testing/exception handling and performance optimization), but it can't hurt to have an IT degree if you're looking for an IT job. It can get you in the door for an interview, and may even land you the job.
But the degree will not substitute for experience after a while, and thinking that a degree is all you need will come back to bite you. In a way, the best degree is the one that shows you the basics plus how to go about learning the advanced stuff, the important stuff, and the reasons behind all of the stuff. How much a person applies it is up to him or her.
Just my two cents.
webrunner
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A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
October 16, 2007 at 7:26 am
I think the college argument is going to come down to whether someone went to college or not on how they respond to this. My guess is that those that went to college are going to sing the praises of how important college should be when looking for a candidate. Those that didn't go will probably argue how their life experiences have helped them become a better employee.
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. I think both avenues have their advantages and disadvantages.
Personally, I went to school as a somewhat non-traditional student (started at 24). I busted my rump and worked/paid my way through school. So obviously, I associate some weight to a college degree knowing what I went through and the things that I learned.
Ultimately though it comes down to the individual and how they've taken (or not taken) advantage of the opportunities that have been presented to them. Whether that opportunity was college, military, or working their way up at another company. There are many ways to show the capacity to learn and the "fortitude" to follow through.
October 16, 2007 at 7:30 am
Typically I don't view a degree as a requirement for a DBA any more than I would for any other skilled technical job like welding or machining (that's not demeaning, try comparing paychecks.) However for some DBAs and most developers and analysts it is. Much of my reason goes to positions needing reasoning, analytical problem solving skills and a broader business mindset. Some of that can be taught and some can be developed without college but mostly the folks that have "It" already had "It" and get "It" enhanced by the college experience. And the folks that have "It" before college tend to go to college and complete their degree. Sort of a chicken or egg thing. So when I'm culling several hundred resumes for a position, there better be something outstanding to catch my eye if they don't have a degree. But if a friend drops a single resume on me, the degree (or not) is just one more piece of info to consider regardless of the position.
Regards,
Greg Young
October 16, 2007 at 7:43 am
I'm not sure that welding or machining is the same as a Production DBA. Typically we have to work with data and understand it's implications for troubleshooting as much as a development DBA or analyst. Often we're the ones that end up knowing as much about how the data is used as anyone.
October 16, 2007 at 7:48 am
It is interesting how attitudes change between our two countries.
For me, I got decent GCSE's (aged 16), rubbish A-levels (aged 18, whislt my parents split up) and a good degree (2:1 Hons - the hightest being a 1:1 Hons). However, now I am penalised because the university I went to was not one of the 'Top' universities, and therefore my degree is all but useless.
Because so many people have degrees now, it really is seen as just 'another' qualification. Many companies will look for at least 2/3 years experience as well. What we don't seem to have are companies which are willing to take people on without that experience, so it is difficult to get.
October 16, 2007 at 7:48 am
As the years go on and I interview, coach and mentor more interns and fresh graduates, I am prizing college on a resume less and less.
It is good to know that someone has had the determination to finish college but that shiny plaque means nothing without demonstrated ability to put fingers on keyboard and get it right. In more than 2 decades of developing DB-centric applications the hands down best DBA I know (Ross-man, you know it is you) did graduate from college but never intended to be a DBA. Two of the top 5 programmers I know are GED/POA (pass on attendance) graduates of high schools.
College is valuable in the interview process when you, as the interviewer, explore the individuals college experience and examine the answers in relation to the qualitites you are looking for in a particular position.
I wonder what mine would say... 6-1/2 years to finish working fulltime + part time jobs to send wife, sister and brother through college at the same time I was attending. This, too, iss offered to add perspective to the above comments.
October 16, 2007 at 8:23 am
Steve Jones - Editor (10/16/2007)
I'm not sure that welding or machining is the same as a Production DBA. Typically we have to work with data and understand it's implications for troubleshooting as much as a development DBA or analyst. Often we're the ones that end up knowing as much about how the data is used as anyone.
Well of course, handling data is different from material but they are both trades that can be learned well over time as an apprentice, journeyman and master. A DB is a complex machine and operating and fixing a complex machine takes skill - skill that can (must?) be learned over time. Designing the complex machine is altogether different.
Perhaps I've just been exposed to only the more pedestrian production DBAs over the last 35 years.
Regards,
Greg Young
October 16, 2007 at 8:35 am
I tend to put college degrees right up there with MS Certifications; Nice to have, but if you cant do the work, then its not worth anything. To me, being a dba or a developer means you must be able to have certain mental skills like critical thinking, problem solving, and logic. There are thousands of ways to get those skills in daily life that do not involve college.
When I interview for dba/db developer positions, as long as you can show me knowledge about the db software, hardware, and have the ability to think on your feet, then training will take care of the rest.
October 16, 2007 at 8:44 am
I have a degree in Computer Science and work at a College. Having a college degree says you "stuck it out" and achieved a long-term goal. It probably also means that you dealt with tasks that you didn't like to achieve your goal. Every job has those unwelcome tasks to deal with. Too many people want a job where they can just work ONLY on the tasks that they enjoy. That said, I believe that experience can be comparable to education and in some instances more important.
October 16, 2007 at 8:56 am
Good thoughts on this. I know that my college experience had some influence on me getting my first real job, just because it showed that I'd stuck it out in a 4 year program (just don't ask about GPA). I realized my senior year in college that I really wanted to do something other than my major, though. I wasn't about to switch then and stuck out the last year, tried fruitlessly to find a job in my major, gave up on that and switch to computers.
I knew MS-based computing pretty well from my childhood days (anyone else remember trying to load almost everything in high memory to run a game 🙂 ?) That led to me tinkering, figuring out how things worked, and some programming as well - especially if the end result would be less work for me in the long run. I transitioned to databases because I really like the challenge of writing the appropriate SQL code to work with the data and designing the correct solution for the problem presented to me.
Does a college degree mean anything when hiring? I'd agree with most of the other comments - it's a starting point. By itself, it doesn't really mean much - it's what each individual did with that education and that time in college. I'll look at the fact that someone has a degree and maybe discuss that briefly, but experience or a willingness to learn make more of a difference in my evaluations.
Cool discussion topic. I look forward to following this thread.
-Pete
October 16, 2007 at 10:07 am
Did some college, definitely had plans to finish. Was a straight A honors student all through high school. Saw an opportunity at the company I still work for (11 years later) and took it. I was able to move up through the ranks so to speak. I live in a very rural area so the idea of switching jobs every four years isn't realistic or in my case necessary because I have been able to participate in so many facets of the business. Best decision I ever made considering I have more experience (and in many cases made more money) than many of my friends who chose to major in things like sociology or marine biology. It is like so many have said - a component or piece of the picture. I'll definitely finish my degree some day - still take classes upon occasion and do a lot of different specialized training for the various projects we work on. Some self taught some actual paid training. Life hands you lots of opportunities it is just a matter of recognizing which ones are right for you. Definitely a choose your own adventure :D. You shouldn't let anyone define you by having a degree or lacking one because as you have all pointed out it is what you do with it that counts.
My Mom taught young children in school for years. Consistently there were kids who scored off the charts on standardized tests. These same kids, however, often couldn't finish a coloring page. So my Mom always told me "I don't care how smart you are on paper - you are only as smart as you can apply it". That has stuck with me through all the years. If you can't finish the coloring page.....I've met a lot of people with degrees, certifications & without - really bright people but they can't finish the coloring page....
October 16, 2007 at 10:32 am
Julie Breutzmann (10/16/2007)
I have a degree in Computer Science and work at a College. Having a college degree says you "stuck it out" and achieved a long-term goal. It probably also means that you dealt with tasks that you didn't like to achieve your goal. Every job has those unwelcome tasks to deal with. Too many people want a job where they can just work ONLY on the tasks that they enjoy. That said, I believe that experience can be comparable to education and in some instances more important.
Well - that's a bit of a dangerous preconception. While having the degree might tell you something, NOT having the degree could mean a lot of things which aren't easily derivable, so making a judgment call solely based on the presence/absence of a degree is something a bit unfair in my mind. All of the reasons why they might NOT have a degree don't exist don't have a place to exist in a resume (like a sickness, someone dying in their family, someone getting laid off).
For example - I have a degree, but it took me a LONG time to get it. My dad was a pastor, so we never had a lot; but, because I placed very well in High school, I got accepted into a very selectiev (and expensive) school in the North East. The problem was that even with all of the grants, scholarships, and me working full time - we ran out of money. I needed to take a job, so I did, and then needed to start paying everything back.... Long story to lead to the fact that it took me 14 years to get said degree. Do I lack motivation/the will to "stick with it"? According to your logic - for 14 years, that would have been your conclusion. I "lost" a lot of opportunities because of that delay; on the other hand - I had to work harder to get where I am now, so perhaps I am better rounded for the experience.
Just be careful of the correlations you draw. Address it if you wish, but I'd recommend bringing that up during the interview (it's a good way to find out what someone is made of).
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
October 16, 2007 at 10:43 am
I went to college after 4 years in the military. That experience was far greater and beneficial than college straight out of high school was, at least for me. I enjoyed watching freshman knuckle under to the professor because they didn't know any better. When I stood up to their tactics, I learned I would be treated better. When I stood up to their philosophy, I learned I could flunk!
What I dislike of college then and even now as my third child starts is the liberal teaching and waste of time classes that are still mandatory to be taught. Yes, they are suppose to "open your eyes to new horizons" but at the current cost of tuition, I'd rather learn what I want and take that sort of stuff as an elective.
I think technical school for a lot of the computer industry jobs including DBA would be a better choice. Get more people trained quickly (2 -3 years) and kept current. Leave the computer science degree for those that want to design computer systems for use years from now. You don't need a 4 year degree to install Vista - just 4 years to make it work :Whistling:
Wait, a college student and a drop out did design Vista...
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