April 15, 2009 at 9:47 am
Excellent points, dphillips, but cost isn't always the reason to do something. Web hosting companies are cheaper for some people, not others. They are also better run in some cases, not in others. Depends on who you are. Sometimes outsourcing for more money, and more convenience, and less investment risk, is worth it.
Cloud computing is vaporware now, and I think it will be for a few years, but VMs were like that as well. I've been VM'ing since 99, and it's come a long way.
April 15, 2009 at 11:21 am
It seems to me that the Cloud Computing concept is geared toward and good for small to midsize groups that are starting up or that do not want to deal with their own computing needs.
A new company that needs a set of tools but does not want to make that investment now as it need to pump it's capital into other parts of it's business so it rents from the cloud the apps and storage it needs until it tunrs the next corner of it's business.
It seems that once the corner of that business turns, then they start looking at their own systems.
There are always trade offs as well. I was at a mature larger company that decided to outsource the majority of it's IT. First the sla's were changed to fit the outsource company, not the larger client company. Then the nickel and dime work started, oh you would like x well that is not a standard that is extra etc.
Mark
April 15, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (4/15/2009)
Excellent points, dphillips, but cost isn't always the reason to do something. Web hosting companies are cheaper for some people, not others. They are also better run in some cases, not in others. Depends on who you are. Sometimes outsourcing for more money, and more convenience, and less investment risk, is worth it.Cloud computing is vaporware now, and I think it will be for a few years, but VMs were like that as well. I've been VM'ing since 99, and it's come a long way.
I believe we are agreed. However, the "Depends on who you are" part is a little off though. It is more like, it depends on what you know, what resources you have, and how to make the best use of time. Time is the most critical asset. While most of my statements focus on cost and thoughtful planning, there is the "Brain Damage" dimension that says, "I don't want to deal with this facet, and am willing to pay the price to keep focus elsewhere."
For example, in a past life, I was a mechanic... an airplane mechanic. These days, I don't want to do mess with that type of work anymore, and would rather pay someone else to do it (at a greater cost to me) to not have to deal with being a grease and fuel monkey.
The problem is, most conversations about the cloud make it sound like some rosy cheap and fast place to forget ones responsibilities, as they will magically be wisped away. That is the pitch given to execs. "Everyone is doing it, it must be the financial responsible thing to do!" Most do not know how bad the decision was until 1.5 to 3 years down the road, and have costly decisions to make. It too closely follows the model of temptation and eventual entrapment, and quite often pushes aside sound cost and functional analysis.
It is not new technology; it is simply repackaged centralized computing, on a far grander scale, but plagued with the same issues that centralized vs. distributed have always dealt with. But boy it sure looks more zingy and "blue sky" than ever!
April 15, 2009 at 6:44 pm
I just don't think it's at all accurate to say or to imply that the many companies who made the decision to use salesforce.com or other SaaS solutions all made the wrong decision or made some shortsighted decision. And no, I'm not affiliated with salesforce.com in any way either - they are just a convenient reference since they are so well-known.
I'm sure that the vast majority of the decision-makers in these thousands of companies are intelligent profesisonals who went through a valid decision-making process that took into account the salient factors for their companies, and were not merely hoodwinked or mesmerized by some slick brochures or fast-talking sales reps. Let's face it, the SaaS companies don't have any monopoly on slick marketing or salespeople. There have to be other reasons for the success of SaaS offerings, and since they have already been mentioned in this thread I won't repeat them, but they are real and although SaaS may not be for every company or every application, it obviously works for many.
April 15, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Bob Abernethy (4/15/2009)
...I'm sure that the vast majority of the decision-makers in these thousands of companies are intelligent profesisonals who went through a valid decision-making process that took into account the salient factors for their companies, and were not merely hoodwinked or mesmerized by some slick brochures or fast-talking sales reps...
I hope you were trying to be ironic.
April 16, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (4/15/2009)
Bob Abernethy (4/15/2009)
...I'm sure that the vast majority of the decision-makers in these thousands of companies are intelligent profesisonals who went through a valid decision-making process that took into account the salient factors for their companies, and were not merely hoodwinked or mesmerized by some slick brochures or fast-talking sales reps...
I hope you were trying to be ironic.
No, I wasn't trying to be ironic. I'm not ready to give that much credit to the power of slick marketing or fast-talking sales reps. Nor am I ready to write off all the customers of SaaS solutions as dim-witted dupes. They each had their reasons for selecting that approach and I think it would be incorrect to say they all - or even most of them - didn't know what they were doing.
April 16, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Bob Abernethy (4/15/2009)
I just don't think it's at all accurate to say or to imply that the many companies who made the decision to use salesforce.com or other SaaS solutions all made the wrong decision or made some shortsighted decision. And no, I'm not affiliated with salesforce.com in any way either - they are just a convenient reference since they are so well-known.I'm sure that the vast majority of the decision-makers in these thousands of companies are intelligent profesisonals who went through a valid decision-making process that took into account the salient factors for their companies, and were not merely hoodwinked or mesmerized by some slick brochures or fast-talking sales reps. Let's face it, the SaaS companies don't have any monopoly on slick marketing or salespeople. There have to be other reasons for the success of SaaS offerings, and since they have already been mentioned in this thread I won't repeat them, but they are real and although SaaS may not be for every company or every application, it obviously works for many.
My comments were aimed at two salacious points:
1. The misconception that cloud = cheaper.
2. The idea that SQL server may possibly largely live in the cloud inside of two years.
There must be balance between distributed and centralized computing, for many reasons. There is a lot of hype about the cloud these days, but it just history repeating with a new twist.
I do imply, because I have personally witnessed it in several companies, that the decision to outsource a system or IT process is made largely on perceived cost savings that never materialized, and in fact created more problems than it solved. The problem is the price-point; there is only a thin band where it is actually cost-worthy, and past that, must rely on reasons other than cost to prove profitable.
The primary sales pitch of cloud contenders is cost savings, which contention is widely based on that very thin segment of partners/processes that actually do see savings. The majority do not, but don't realize that until more than a year afterward. The first year always gets attributed to development hiccups.
To say that a large masse cannot be hoodwinked is to completely ignore history... even recent history. Bailout anyone?
"Hey, but everyone is doing it! All those millions cannot be wrong!"
I am not against the "cloud". Quite the contrary. I am truly excited by the possibilities. Seeing more power available in the centralized computing segment lifts the capabilities of both centralized and distributed computing. But that doesn't mean that most will be or should be trying to put their core systems into the cloud.
Many people are starting to talk like everything will soon be dumped on the cloud, and save money on licensing, internal heavy-system maintenance, and manpower. Little to no mention is made about other costs that get induced from such moves.
A motor-sailor is water-craft that has both an inboard engine and a sailing rig. It is very good at neither, but can do both to some extent.
A well-crafted internal system will always out-perform the cloud and be cheaper in the long haul, and better for the customers it serves and the quality of the services it delivers. This is especially true of data and DBMS's.
The cloud is great when it brings or causes revenue that would be difficult or nearly impossible to generate in-house, or saves on "brain damage" leaving a business to focus on those services and products it really provides.
April 16, 2009 at 6:41 pm
This is the first report on cost benefit analysis and it says it will cost more but the main issue is to replace an existing software operation you need something better that I have not seen.
http://www.elasticvapor.com/2009/04/mckinsey-co-clearing-air-on-cloud.html
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
April 16, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Gift Peddie (4/16/2009)
This is the first report on cost benefit analysis and it says it will cost more but the main issue is to replace an existing software operation you need something better that I have not seen.http://www.elasticvapor.com/2009/04/mckinsey-co-clearing-air-on-cloud.html
An article worth the read. The author wanted more input about elasticity of the cloud, but still recommends further reading the report that his article is talking about. I recommend reading that too. It refers to:
http://uptimeinstitute.org/content/view/353/319
(download the report at the bottom)
As I understood it, the report is neither for nor against cloud computing, just promoting better understanding about the definition of the cloud, and the cost analysis. The information really isn't new... just a needed repackaging of old wisdom: Don't run with the hype for the sake of the hype, and use sound judgement. It compares it to the Dot Com hype and bust. (I actually feel this is like the "next wave" from the Dot Com tsunami, but IMHO likely won't break as wild due to dampened economy and consumer wariness... that is a good thing, because it will be more stable long term.) The report also (minimally) discusses scaling, stacking, and virtualization from within, to achieve some savings. This is also another redeaux on condensing and consolidation.
History takes us through cycles of lean and fat... and we'll be rolling 'round again and again.
October 15, 2013 at 7:01 am
Today, in the fall of 2013, how may of us are using SQL Server Azure or EC2 in a production environment?
I don't mean a database feeding your personal blog, but an actual production database in the cloud that serves your organization or enterprise.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
October 15, 2013 at 7:43 am
My comments were aimed at two salacious points:
Did you mean "salient?" I suppose salacious would work, but it gives your post a whole different meaning. 😀
October 15, 2013 at 9:39 am
Eric M Russell (10/15/2013)
Today, in the fall of 2013, how may of us are using SQL Server Azure or EC2 in a production environment?I don't mean a database feeding your personal blog, but an actual production database in the cloud that serves your organization or enterprise.
Let me see, None now and none planned in the near term.
M...
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
October 15, 2013 at 10:49 am
Eric M Russell (10/15/2013)
Today, in the fall of 2013, how may of us are using SQL Server Azure or EC2 in a production environment?I don't mean a database feeding your personal blog, but an actual production database in the cloud that serves your organization or enterprise.
Yes to AWS and will ramp up considerably in November.
October 15, 2013 at 10:50 am
None planned now or in the near future either. Recently there was an article (on InfoWorld) about a mid sized Cloud Hosting company that went bankrupt. They gave their users 3 days to pull their data off. Between that and several high profile cloud crashes we'll probably be a long time in moving anything there.
October 15, 2013 at 11:35 am
Every time I read another one of these editorials on this subject, I start hearing:
"Pimping the cloud, Pimping the cloud"
to the tune of Judas Priest's "Breaking the Law".
😛
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