June 19, 2012 at 7:53 am
Not at all. Almost all the dbas i worked with and hired are not certified but are among the best dbas i have met. But if you have regulations and requirements that need that, i'd rather do it and get it over with. And there is nothing to go to war against those who have certs or use them to learn. That is all.
June 19, 2012 at 8:43 am
Dan.Humphries (6/19/2012)
"It is my way of learning" One of the posters said above. I think that summs my problem up perfectly. What about those of us who do not learn that way should we be respected less because we do not have the letters after our name?
No and if you feel others look at you that way the problem could just be you. There will always be some jerk off in the room during an interview who has something to prove. They have certs and you don't so in their mind you are dirt or you have them and they don't so in their mind they might suspect you think you are superior and they feel threatened. None of this is directed at you personally, it is just something we have all run up against so it is worth mentioning. In a fair and professional technical interview there should be no hostility from the side of the table doing the hiring. Unfortunately this seems to be uncommon.
Cheers
June 19, 2012 at 9:00 am
Before being certified i have felt picked on and antagonised that way but figured out later that they were MS Gold partners in one case who needed that for business reasons. Another place had a dated HR policy. Both cases are simply not worth getting offended about. There are more people imho who pick on those who are certified (like they pick on 'all' Microsoft software being a certain way or apple being a certain way or whatever) because of some personal bad experience. It is important to not be reactive based on our own personal story in any situation and try to see if there are any reasons behind it.
June 19, 2012 at 9:21 am
don't forget - MVP is a certification - those guys have earned their stripes
MVDBA
June 19, 2012 at 9:37 am
michael vessey (6/19/2012)
don't forget - MVP is a certification - those guys have earned their stripes
Actually, MVP isn't a certification. It is a special recognition of ones service to the community by Microsoft. It can be granted and it can be taken away.
June 19, 2012 at 9:39 am
Like knighthood!
Cheers
June 19, 2012 at 11:06 am
michael vessey (6/19/2012)
If I were put into such a position where 2 candidates were exactly equal and I could only chose one, then I'd find some way to break the tie but it wouldn't be based on the one who had the cert, degree, citation, or whatever.
i find this an interesting viewpoint
there are some people who seem to want to go out of their way to pretend certification does not exist or has no value whatsoever - personally i view it as another thing i can score a candidate on - it doesn't have to be the main point i score them on, just something else in their favour
then again there seem to be some other people saying they would not take a candidate who is certified.... sureley that would be some kind of discrimination.
What about the other person who doesn't have the cert? If I think that person is just as good as the certified person, doesn't that say something about the motiviation and ability of that individual to learn without the formal training?
As others have said, some people can learn by studying for certs. Others can't. I have nothing against people with degrees or certs but it entitles them to nothing but some respect (they same respect I give anyone during an interview, BTW). It's a tool they used to learn something. If, somehow, they got the degree or cert without really learning anything, then I don't want them.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 19, 2012 at 11:14 am
Jeff Moden (6/19/2012)
michael vessey (6/19/2012)
What about the other person who doesn't have the cert? If I think that person is just as good as the certified person, doesn't that say something about the motiviation and ability of that individual to learn without the formal training?
Who ever said certs need 'formal training'? None of my efforts involved any other than reading lot of material and working through what was needed. If you are talking of books and such as 'formal training' am not sure lot of people can do without them, certs or not. If an individual has spent his own $ and effort to do that 'training' or preparation i'd respect them for it, and know a few who are that way. Much as you say you dont' want anyone who gets certified for purposes other than learning, I don't think i would want anyone with a chip on their shoulder on certifications either. Simply because many times these are business necessities, steps towards higher certifcations such as MCM and plain learning tools. And as someone said before if you are that good a DBA why would you really have such a hang up about getting through it anyways?
June 19, 2012 at 3:14 pm
It's not so much about having a chip on the shoulder about certs as it is about the basic integrity of the cert someone holds being possibly compromised by the presence of "braindumps" out there. Many people I know of have used them in the past and then promptly forgot everything they memorized just a week later. It cheapens the certification process in general as long as they exist IMHO. In Microsoft's defense though, I should say through lawsuits and other means, they have come along way on this issue though....:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
June 19, 2012 at 8:09 pm
dma-669038 (6/19/2012)
Jeff Moden (6/19/2012)
michael vessey (6/19/2012)
What about the other person who doesn't have the cert? If I think that person is just as good as the certified person, doesn't that say something about the motiviation and ability of that individual to learn without the formal training?
Who ever said certs need 'formal training'? None of my efforts involved any other than reading lot of material and working through what was needed. If you are talking of books and such as 'formal training' am not sure lot of people can do without them, certs or not. If an individual has spent his own $ and effort to do that 'training' or preparation i'd respect them for it, and know a few who are that way. Much as you say you dont' want anyone who gets certified for purposes other than learning, I don't think i would want anyone with a chip on their shoulder on certifications either. Simply because many times these are business necessities, steps towards higher certifcations such as MCM and plain learning tools. And as someone said before if you are that good a DBA why would you really have such a hang up about getting through it anyways?
Although I agree that certs don't require "formal training" (my mistake), I believe you've mistaken what I've been trying to say. I don't have a chip on my shoulder for or against certs. I simply don't use certs in my evaluation process of who I want to work for me. That comes out in the interview in the form of knowledge, the ability to think about those things they might not know, and attitude.
Consider the following. I'm trying to hire and two people with the same knowledge as Gail Shaw are the last two folks being considered. The two people are identical in their apparent knowledge. One has a cert and the other doesn't.
Which should I hire? Some say the one with the cert. Others say the one without the cert. My take on it is that they both apparently busted a hump learning SQL Server to the same level. It may even be that the one without the cert used the same books to study from. Should I penalize either for either having a cert or not having a cert? I don't believe so. What I need to do is either hire them both (my unrealistic expectation) or make a choice. Since even their personalities are identical, how do I make that choice?
All else being equal, my answer would be to continue the interviews because I simply don't know who the best person for the job is yet.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 20, 2012 at 7:03 am
Jeff Moden (6/19/2012)
Consider the following. I'm trying to hire and two people with the same knowledge as Gail Shaw are the last two folks being considered. The two people are identical in their apparent knowledge. One has a cert and the other doesn't.
Which should I hire? Some say the one with the cert. Others say the one without the cert. My take on it is that they both apparently busted a hump learning SQL Server to the same level. It may even be that the one without the cert used the same books to study from. Should I penalize either for either having a cert or not having a cert? I don't believe so. What I need to do is either hire them both (my unrealistic expectation) or make a choice. Since even their personalities are identical, how do I make that choice?
All else being equal, my answer would be to continue the interviews because I simply don't know who the best person for the job is yet.
In the real world, no two people have completely identical knowledge and aptitude (which is what this whole debate boils down to, IMO). Even identical twins at some point have different experiences. At some point in the interview process, you're going to find a difference.
Nonetheless, you are correct that the certification ultimately doesn't prove anything about whether the candidate has the knowledge, the aptitude and the personality that makes them a good fit for the position. The fact that they got the certification simply doesn't indicate that. Would you hire a candidate who has the certification but shows up to the interview in a T-shirt, shorts and flip-flops?
Jay Bienvenu | http://bienv.com | http://twitter.com/jbnv
June 20, 2012 at 7:21 am
I agree that no two people are similar and it is extremely rare that one would be faced with such a challenge. I must confess though that if certifications are needed for a valid reason by the company - such as being a MS gold partner or supporting pursuit of MCM or even an HR policy that is out of control of the technical interviewers, I would expect the candidate to have them, or atleast be open to taking them. I don't regard expectation of a cert as 'bias' or wrong if backed up by these reasons. And yah, if the company has an informal dress code no issue with shorts or t shirts either :))
June 20, 2012 at 7:53 am
Would you hire a candidate who has the certification but shows up to the interview in a T-shirt, shorts and flip-flops?
Yes, and I have in the past. We had a very informal dress code so that was not an issue at all, nor was the cert. Outward appearance is not that important to me anyway, and certs mean nothing to me. I have very long hair myself. Can they do the job at hand and show up on time every day? If not, they won't last two weeks. That is what is important to me. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
June 20, 2012 at 8:04 am
T-shirts, shorts and whatever is the dress code here but for in interview I suggest you dress like you are going to court! We do all our business over the phone so what you are dressed like matters not.
Cheers
June 20, 2012 at 8:56 am
The dress code question was rhetorical.
Jay Bienvenu | http://bienv.com | http://twitter.com/jbnv
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