June 18, 2012 at 10:30 am
2 jobs ago ... one of the most "frustrating" SQL DBAs that my deparment hired had all of Microsoft's DBA certifications. But his SQL coding was very suspect. Just one example: After he wasted many hours trying to fix his buggy T-SQL SP, I showed him how he needed parentheses around his ORs to separate/isolate them from the ANDs in his WHERE clause -- simple programming logic. Instead of thanking me he angrily replied back "where is one supposed to learn this programming logic?!" oh boy... this dude certainly did not deserve his salary.
Yes, certifications are worthless.
June 18, 2012 at 10:34 am
I don't have any certs. Hasn't had any impact at all, positive or negative, on job hunting, doing my job, or anything else I'm aware of.
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June 18, 2012 at 11:23 am
andycao (6/18/2012)
2 jobs ago ... one of the most "frustrating" SQL DBAs that my deparment hired had all of Microsoft's DBA certifications. But his SQL coding was very suspect. Just one example: After he wasted many hours trying to fix his buggy T-SQL SP, I showed him how he needed parentheses around his ORs to separate/isolate them from the ANDs in his WHERE clause -- simple programming logic. Instead of thanking me he angrily replied back "where is one supposed to learn this programming logic?!" oh boy... this dude certainly did not deserve his salary.Yes, certifications are worthless.
This is not as uncommon as some may think and it was typical in my experience. I've worked with several other DBAs that were good at the admin side but lousy at the T-SQL or PL/SQL side of things. The reasoning was always that they were not there to code. At the same company or companies I was there to be a production and dev DBA for SQL Server and Oracle and I was also there to write all the code when it came to SQL regardless of the flavor. That means we have the same position but for some reason the other(s) could get a pass on something I consider to be important. How can you claim to be good at performance tuning if you can't spot sh*t code? How can you work to resolve locking issues if you can't inform the offender that what they are doing is wrong and inform them on how to go about it the right way?
Cheers
June 18, 2012 at 11:31 am
Certifications are not worthless. The problem is actually that some people are able to get the certifications even though they can't do the tasks required. I worked with an MCDBA at a previous employer, and I have no idea how he managed to earn it. I would like to get the MS Certifications, I just haven't found the time or the money to get it done yet. Oh, and I have been working with SQL Server for about 15 years now.
June 18, 2012 at 11:36 am
I agree with Lynn. Only said they don't have much value from a job market perspective, and that is something MS should address perhaps. Certs give a decent overview of the product, perhaps the best there is, if you do them the right way (without using braindumps or other shortcuts). I have always done them for that reason only - it gives me confidence that I have a good overview of the product features even though I don't know all of them in great detail.And sometimes they do prove a person's interest in learning - a great many people I have met are only good at their jobs and couldn't care less about knowing anything further. That might work for some jobs but I always look for clues that indicate person is doing what he needs to do to help himself and certs are occasionally indicators of that. (Only 'occasionally' not always :))
June 18, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Talking with our HR and recruiting team, I’ve learned experience and personality trumps certifications or degree. However, a wide combination of experience, certifications, and/or college degree is a filter used in setting up interviews.
I currently do not have a certification or a completed degree; however, my employer has sent me to both “official” and unofficial courses and classes over the years. The willingness and ability to learn are two major traits that are becoming scarce in the workforce. It’s this reason I’ve decided to pursue MS certification in the technologies that I’ve been working with for years. My only cost will be the fee for the test and the time to review a book or two.
Hopefully I will not unexpectedly find myself back in the labor pool but in this day and age I will feel a little more comfortable with certifications alongside my experience.
June 18, 2012 at 4:48 pm
dma-669038 (6/18/2012)
If i had two candidates who score near equal in all other areas - personality, experience and so on, and i am only left with certs as differentiating factor between them, then i would choose certs. So far not had any situation that way though.
If I were put into such a position where 2 candidates were exactly equal and I could only chose one, then I'd find some way to break the tie but it wouldn't be based on the one who had the cert, degree, citation, or whatever.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 18, 2012 at 6:33 pm
Certifications should not be used as the only way to measure someone’s skill set but they can be used as a factor in the decision making process. Certifications show that the candidate has demonstrated at least a basic level of understanding of the advanced features of the current SQL version.
I think we all respect a senior DBA with 5+ years’ experience. They have seen a lot. However, without knowing what the environment looks like currently or what the actual recovery and security models looks like, can we really say they are good at what they do? Or even what this DBAs role was? There might be a reason they are looking for a new job. I have seen experienced people that I wouldn’t let do a simple DB Restore on one of my instances. I have seen “green” or junior DBAs that I would trust with more complex tasks than the seniors.
Obviously experience is the most valuable asset a candidate can have but it is difficult to measure sometimes. You only have a few minutes to impress someone in an interview if you even make it that far. So personally I felt it was important to get SQL 2008 MCTS and MCITP certified. I learned a lot about the new features that we don’t usually use and my employer picked up the cost of the tests. I think most employers will.
Honestly, if the people posting against the certifications are experienced DBAs, they should not have any trouble passing the tests which will set them even further out in front of the pack. I spent 45 days getting mine. Who knows, they may even learn something along the way…I did. I have no regrets and I don’t see the downside. My $120 bucks didn’t make Microsoft any richer and it can only help me.
June 18, 2012 at 7:43 pm
I've never seen someone rejected from or lose a job because they have certs. They are useful in backing up experience in my opinion. I can't speak for anyone else other than myself but working with someone who has them and finding them generally incompetent is what gives certs a stink. I don't think it is a waste of time for the truly skilled and I think weeding out the certified but generally unskilled is on the shoulder of those who hire. Of course, we've all worked with someone we just can't understand how they got the job or keep it. Certified or not.
Cheers
June 19, 2012 at 2:27 am
If I were put into such a position where 2 candidates were exactly equal and I could only chose one, then I'd find some way to break the tie but it wouldn't be based on the one who had the cert, degree, citation, or whatever.
i find this an interesting viewpoint
there are some people who seem to want to go out of their way to pretend certification does not exist or has no value whatsoever - personally i view it as another thing i can score a candidate on - it doesn't have to be the main point i score them on, just something else in their favour
then again there seem to be some other people saying they would not take a candidate who is certified.... sureley that would be some kind of discrimination.
MVDBA
June 19, 2012 at 6:43 am
Yes you are right. A lot of people are very hung up on 'not having' degree/certs or any such thing, perhaps because 'they' made it without none of these. I was even in an interview once when a panelist picked up an argumentative line with me - pointing to the MCITP on my resume', so how does 'that' make you better than others, blah blah and so on. It does not make me 'better', it helps me understand the product featurs and it is my way of learning. It may not be yours but you better respect it as one way, that is all. And there are many who have no ways at all.
June 19, 2012 at 7:11 am
michael vessey (6/19/2012)
then again there seem to be some other people saying they would not take a candidate who is certified.... sureley that would be some kind of discrimination.
Almost every job hiring process involves some form of discrimination. Employers discriminate against the unqualified. The processes that reduce dozens to hundreds of applications to a handful of interviews and ultimately one hire involve discrimination on various criteria.
Jay Bienvenu | http://bienv.com | http://twitter.com/jbnv
June 19, 2012 at 7:42 am
I think the problem is that the cert tests are often behind the development of the test. I have not even attempted a cert since Windows NT and one of the questions always stuck with me. They questions was about IRQ's and the correct answer was that there would be 25 avaialbe in NT. After much protesting and such the problem was that NT was suppossed to have 25 available but it never made it into the final release. I often find having used the product is a disadvantage in testing. Based off what others have said and discussions I have had this has never improved. Even in the classes I have taken I have often thought "Yeah you could do it that way. But who in there right mind would?"
On a side from that I have always been a terrible test taker. I don't claim to have even half the knowledge most of you have and I have one of the worst memories in history so I document like crazy in my job. I work with what God has given me and that is all we can really do. All I can say to a future employer is that I have never willingly or knowingly missed a deadline or failed to complete a job.
Dan
If only I could snap my figures and have all the correct indexes apear and the buffer clean and.... Start day dream here.
June 19, 2012 at 7:50 am
To my mind discrimination is something that individual is helpless against - such as gender, skin color, ethnicity and so on. A degree or a certification is not quite in that category. I agree certs can be expensive, without a doubt, and it is really not true that 'most' firms pay or even support learning - but a career in IT is hardly possible without personal investment of some kind. MS offers gold partner benefits for having certified employees on board - so many companies of late like to take advantage of things like that and require their employees to get certified. There are many older companies where it takes very long for HR to revise older rules on certs and so on. Instead of fighting all this I'd rather do what is needed and get certified if I had to. Extreme stances always limit choices. As long as one is aware of that it is ok.
June 19, 2012 at 7:50 am
"It is my way of learning" One of the posters said above. I think that summs my problem up perfectly. What about those of us who do not learn that way should we be respected less because we do not have the letters after our name?
Dan
If only I could snap my figures and have all the correct indexes apear and the buffer clean and.... Start day dream here.
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