September 9, 2011 at 8:30 am
I tried to get into software development for 3 years; calling, sending CV + Cover letter, and visiting many business both big and small in an attempt to get an interview. In 3 years of trying, I managed less than 10 interviews and never managed to get a job.
I then went to University, knowing I couldn't really afford it (which explains the debt I'm now in), completed a Computer Science degree where I felt I learnt nothing (with the exception of set-theory which I found extremely interesting) and continued to teach myself using books and forums like this one. After graduating, the job market was scarce and I managed to get an unpaid job working with SSIS and SSAS. I worked there for 6 months gaining industry experience, then was finally able to get a paid job working as a database developer.
So from my experience, getting a degree is necessary to get an interview and a chance at a job when you have no experience. Getting a job requires experience.
September 9, 2011 at 8:31 am
It really is a big shame! But alas, most of us aren't in the position of telling HR how to do their jobs.
September 9, 2011 at 8:34 am
I have a BA in History, believe it or not. Career-wise, I actually started out on the business side, where i did a lot of ad hoc reporting for my supervisor using Access and Business Objects. I discovered I really liked doing that, so I got a 2 year associates degree from a local technical school. In the course of that study, we had a SQL Server class and I got hooked. I made friends with the guys on the MIS team that supported our line of business, and when an opening appeared on the team, I was in good position to interview. I got the job, and the rest is history, as they say.
While I agree that a four-year degree isn't necessary for a programming career, one thing that college degree taught me is how to think critically, which really comes in handy when trying to solve a problem or design a complex solution. It also instilled a desire to never stop learning, which is critically important in our line of work.
The four year degree didn't help my spelling though...;-)
September 9, 2011 at 8:35 am
syen (9/9/2011)
It really is a big shame! But alas, most of us aren't in the position of telling HR how to do their jobs.
I agree that is a shame. Personally I think the job requirements should be up to the hiring manager to set, not HR.
September 9, 2011 at 8:38 am
WOW, you've picked a topic that's certainly generated a lot of response, Steve. In my opinion, I think we should have a vocational developer training for people wanting to get into the IT and/or developer field. I got my B.S. in Mathematics, but ended up doing what I'm doing today. While getting my B.S., I was advised to take a course in APL (very far from C, and an odd programming language, but supposedly ideal for Mathematicians, or so I was told by my math profs). I learned FORTRAN, which landed me my first programming gig. From there I learned C on the job. Today I'm been programming on the Microsoft stack since VB4, now using C#, VB.NET, ASP.NET and T-SQL. I'm trying to get into mobile development. And because I was the person standing closest to the database servers when the DBA left, I've become the incidental DBA. If anything, I would suggest that not only should there be vocational developer training, there should also be vocational DBA training. I know of a lot of people without degrees, who would love to do this work, but can't afford a B.S.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
September 9, 2011 at 8:40 am
I imagine that HR's job must be pretty tough. If you aren't working at a software/database centric company, your HR probably gets 1000's of applicants and since they don't really know what makes a good developer/DBA they have to follow the job requirements verbatim. It becomes more of a check list procedure for them to keep their sanity.
I personally know there are a lot of techies without degrees that are some of the best at what they do without proper degrees. But HR can only filter people based on the the job requirements posting, and if it doesn't match they toss it. They don't have enough resources to give 1000's of interviews for each position.
September 9, 2011 at 8:40 am
Jason Marshall (9/9/2011)
The four year degree didn't help my spelling though...;-)
I have that same problem. I think if you can't get a handle on that in elementary school, your basically shot. 😀 Plus, think about what we spend most of our time typing. I don't know about anyone else, but I know all my variable and procedure names are either short hand, abbreviations, or something that maybe only makes sense to me.
And then there's grammar. I don't know what's worse, grammar or spelling 😉
September 9, 2011 at 8:44 am
syen (9/9/2011)
I imagine that HR's job must be pretty tough. If you aren't working at a software/database centric company, your HR probably gets 1000's of applicants and since they don't really know what makes a good developer/DBA they have to follow the job requirements verbatim. It becomes more of a check list procedure for them to keep their sanity.I personally know there are a lot of techies without degrees that are some of the best at what they do without proper degrees. But HR can only filter people based on the the job requirements posting, and if it doesn't match they toss it. They don't have enough resources to give 1000's of interviews for each position.
Time to call in a recruitment agency if you have 1000s of applicants for "IT based" roles and no HR IT knowledge.
September 9, 2011 at 8:54 am
Ben Moorhouse (9/9/2011)
syen (9/9/2011)
I imagine that HR's job must be pretty tough. If you aren't working at a software/database centric company, your HR probably gets 1000's of applicants and since they don't really know what makes a good developer/DBA they have to follow the job requirements verbatim. It becomes more of a check list procedure for them to keep their sanity.I personally know there are a lot of techies without degrees that are some of the best at what they do without proper degrees. But HR can only filter people based on the the job requirements posting, and if it doesn't match they toss it. They don't have enough resources to give 1000's of interviews for each position.
Time to call in a recruitment agency if you have 1000s of applicants for "IT based" roles and no HR IT knowledge.
Actually, we do use recruiting agencies. But how do you know that the recruiting industry is that much better at finding talent? They're a blackbox. Sometimes they bring in amazing people, sometimes not so much.
If you are great at programming, creating database architectures, or maintaining servers, chances are you aren't working in HR. And if you aren't that tech savvy, you are going to throw out wheat with the chaff. Very small firms have an advantage in the aspect in that the hiring manager is HR, the owner, and lead developer in one.
Although the firm that I work for has probably thrown out a lot of good candidates, I applaud HR because most of the candidates that they have presented have been very good to top quality.
September 9, 2011 at 8:57 am
As an associate DBA and an instructor at a community college all of our programming classes except one are considered vocational, we offer and have offered for years certificate is most of the visual studio languages (C#, C++ and VB) we also offer associate degrees in programming and database development (Oracle based) although I think I've convinced my boss we should offer parallel courses using MSSQL. We are looking to work toward an associate degree as a DBA. I believe though there is still the place for the 4 yr degree in Computer Science.
September 9, 2011 at 8:58 am
Business school gave me an appreciation for what the computer was supposed to do, eliminate repetitive work, eliminate manual entry errors, and let the decision makers get to the data more quickly. Coding classes worked to teach me about "maintainability" and the perspective of the guy who came along after me.
Today's approach to rapid development, and "throw-away" code makes some of that less relevant; but the idea of understanding the business problem, breaking it into smaller bites, and creating efficient, repeatable results still carries weight.
I'm not sure we can teach "coding" in a vacuum, without some context around why the problem exists, and what the desired solution should address. But I do agree that a technical track, maybe with some "interviewing skills" could be created to get people up and running might be valuable in today's arena!
September 9, 2011 at 9:04 am
syen (9/9/2011)
I imagine that HR's job must be pretty tough. If you aren't working at a software/database centric company, your HR probably gets 1000's of applicants and since they don't really know what makes a good developer/DBA they have to follow the job requirements verbatim. It becomes more of a check list procedure for them to keep their sanity.I personally know there are a lot of techies without degrees that are some of the best at what they do without proper degrees. But HR can only filter people based on the the job requirements posting, and if it doesn't match they toss it. They don't have enough resources to give 1000's of interviews for each position.
So don't put a CS degree on the requirements. We never did at my last company. We were interested in database pros, not student pros. What matters is what you can do, not where you went to school.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
September 9, 2011 at 9:13 am
I have been in IT since the 1970s (yes, I'm an old fart who remembers punch cards). I have a BA in Management and an MBA. I was an officer in the US Army and then a college professor who created my own IT business on the side until I went to it full time.
I'm now the Director of Database Administration & Development for a web development company. I learned EVERYTHING I know about SQL server on the job and through self-study. (And from SQL Server Central daily newsletters of course!) Because of my diverse background I'm what most would call a "generalist."
Not that SQL server development or administration is trivial, but I think the problem I see with the majority of developers is their lack of basic business knowledge. That is, they don't know how business works: the difference between gross and net, how freight moves, what payables and receivables are, what a corporate tax return looks like, how much money is siphoned off every project to pay the government and employee benefits, etc, etc, etc.
In my opinion, common business sense is much harder to learn than technical skills. I'd much rather hire a college graduate with an accounting, logistics or industrial engineering degree (for example) or a non-graduate with some real-world experience running a small business. If they've done any of that with success then they can probably learn to manage SQL server and architect databases that make sense to an actual business that needs solutions.
Now I think there is definitely a place for IT specialists. But most development jobs are NOT going to be at Google, Facebook, or Microsoft.
September 9, 2011 at 9:20 am
YES!!! ... throughout my career leading development projects I have worked with self-taught and degreed developers.
In most cases the self-taught were easier to work with in terms of bringing creative solutions and being open to new ideas or approaches to solve a problem. I always considered them to be my aprentices.
Not to mention in most cases they were the team members who were truly passionate and engaged in their work. Treating it as a craft rather than a job and willing to put in the long hours or re-work effort to "get it right" and deliver on time.
While the degreed developers were typically arrogant, inflexible, clock-punchers.
Related to this same subject there was a great Instant MBA article yesterday that contrasts the difference between internships versus apprenticeships and the skills gap we are facing in the U.S. ... check it out http://e.businessinsider.com/public/333573
September 9, 2011 at 9:21 am
Steven Willis (9/9/2011)
Not that SQL server development or administration is trivial, but I think the problem I see with the majority of developers is their lack of basic business knowledge. That is, they don't know how business works: the difference between gross and net, how freight moves, what payables and receivables are, what a corporate tax return looks like, how much money is siphoned off every project to pay the government and employee benefits, etc, etc, etc.
Amen to that! I'm trying to correct that problem in myself now. I''m good at the IT part, but when it comes to understanding the business reasons why things must be done certain ways, I'm still learning that. I've just started my MBA in Finance and even though I'm only 3 courses in, it's helping tremendously.
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