September 20, 2012 at 2:08 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
I'm not a Celko agent =)Just try to understand =)
He once explained to me that he acts this way online, because it follows a method of teaching his wife uses. She beats students with a stick till they learn. I'm sure it's more complex than that (or she'd be in prison for assault and child abuse), but that's the essence of it. There's a school of Zen Buddhism that's believes that impact is what makes learning stick, and she's probably either a direct adherent to that, or following one of the schools that derives from it. I'm familiar with a variety of teachings on that subject, and with the studies that show a high failure rate on their methodology for anything other than rote memorization. In other words, it teaches data but suppresses understanding and imagination.
I'm told he's very different in person. Nice, polite, helpful, etc.
So, it's complex. I can easily see you (or anyone else) having trouble following it.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 20, 2012 at 2:21 pm
GSquared,
Thanks a lot!
Thanks for taking time to describe situation. I'm surely newbie and will look at Celko's answers to make my own opinion. But now, at least I do know what you are talking about.
Thanks for that! =)
I tend to agree with you, for now, because what I've seen from recent posts.
Mathematicians are so mathematicians =)
I think - good for him to have his own particular opinion, but bat for imposing it so rude to the others!!!
p.s.
(But who cares my opinion=))
September 20, 2012 at 2:21 pm
GSquared (9/20/2012)
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Nope. Not going to taint you with my personal opinions regard Mr. Celko. Too bad he is a co-author with Itzik on a book as I like Itzik's books. I personally won't buy any books in which Mr. Celko is involved.
If you are talking to me "Lynn Pettis" thank you for that. Please consider that English is my not native language. I have excuse in my signature. That means that I could not probably recognize humor sometimes, that does not mean that I'm humorless =)
Back to conversation.
What is so wrong about Celko's co-authority? Is there is smth wrong with Itzic's book chapter written by Celko that I should be aware of?
What made you not to buy Celo's books - personal attitude or professional sense? That is important, please answer. If there are mistakes?
Regarding to Celko's answers.
Yes, they are sometimes rude, sometimes sound ideal, (sometimes don't work - but, please, be patient, look over script scenes, not inside). Also, consider that mathematician is very-very specific man. And in fact we are all due to mathematician Alan Turing about computers.
If all that is not covering boorish and rude answers by Celko, than it is crash of my ideals.
The problem with Joe Celko's answers is that they assume specific rules are applicable as universal answers. For example, DUNS numbers are perfectly good key values for businesses, in certain circumstances. They aren't applicable as a universal rule, for reasons already gone over in more detail than necessary. But he insists they are, and resorts to name-calling against anyone who challenges that idea.
Lynn has a personal opinion about the way Joe handles his interactions with people, and is trying to employ embargo/boycott against Joe's published materials as a means of making a point on that.
So there is a mix of reasons to doubt anything Joe posts. On some things, he's very proficient and will give good advice. On other things, he'll try to browbeat you into doing things his way, even if it's not applicable or potentially harmful. Part of the problem is that it's very difficult to tell which answers are which. Is he making a good point, or trying to enforce compliance with his worldview/mazeway because of ego issues?
By the very nature of the discussions, it's impossible (often) for the person asking the question to tell which is which. After all, if they knew what was a good answer, they wouldn't need to ask the question. This doesn't say anything at all negative about anyone asking a question. It's just a fact that a person who needs help on something is in a poor position to judge whether the answer given is good or not.
That's the problem with Joe's answers, from a technical viewpoint. The fact that they are often worded as, "You moron! You need to learn what a database is! It's not magnetic tape/punch cards/sarcastic item this month!", is another problem. Some people don't find that problematic. They ignore it, and try to parse any actual technical advice out. The usual filtering of signal from noise. Unfortunately, his signal:noise ratio is often quite poor, because he's padding the technical answer with personal attacks, in an attempt at puffing up his own ego and diminishing others.
Review a collection of his posts, and you'll see that this pattern is common to most of them. He doesn't do it every time, but much more often that not.
He's been taken to task many times over this, by many people. He is unable/unwilling to change his behavior. No way to know which. Most commonly, it would be a mix of both, of course.
Does that help clarify what's going on here?
Celko's constant references to "punch cards" and "COBOL" are anachronistic -- most people now likely have little idea what he is "talking"/ranting about.
Much worse, though, they're usually false. For example, against a "flag". Flags are still used all over the place in applications; they didn't, and won't, die out, even when we get to all solid state drives and cloud-only systems, or whatever else comes next.
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) "It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I'm wearing Milk-Bone underwear." "Norm", on "Cheers". Also from "Cheers", from "Carla": "You need to know 3 things about Tortelli men: Tortelli men draw women like flies; Tortelli men treat women like flies; Tortelli men's brains are in their flies".
September 20, 2012 at 2:28 pm
ScottPletcher (9/20/2012)
GSquared (9/20/2012)
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Nope. Not going to taint you with my personal opinions regard Mr. Celko. Too bad he is a co-author with Itzik on a book as I like Itzik's books. I personally won't buy any books in which Mr. Celko is involved.
If you are talking to me "Lynn Pettis" thank you for that. Please consider that English is my not native language. I have excuse in my signature. That means that I could not probably recognize humor sometimes, that does not mean that I'm humorless =)
Back to conversation.
What is so wrong about Celko's co-authority? Is there is smth wrong with Itzic's book chapter written by Celko that I should be aware of?
What made you not to buy Celo's books - personal attitude or professional sense? That is important, please answer. If there are mistakes?
Regarding to Celko's answers.
Yes, they are sometimes rude, sometimes sound ideal, (sometimes don't work - but, please, be patient, look over script scenes, not inside). Also, consider that mathematician is very-very specific man. And in fact we are all due to mathematician Alan Turing about computers.
If all that is not covering boorish and rude answers by Celko, than it is crash of my ideals.
The problem with Joe Celko's answers is that they assume specific rules are applicable as universal answers. For example, DUNS numbers are perfectly good key values for businesses, in certain circumstances. They aren't applicable as a universal rule, for reasons already gone over in more detail than necessary. But he insists they are, and resorts to name-calling against anyone who challenges that idea.
Lynn has a personal opinion about the way Joe handles his interactions with people, and is trying to employ embargo/boycott against Joe's published materials as a means of making a point on that.
So there is a mix of reasons to doubt anything Joe posts. On some things, he's very proficient and will give good advice. On other things, he'll try to browbeat you into doing things his way, even if it's not applicable or potentially harmful. Part of the problem is that it's very difficult to tell which answers are which. Is he making a good point, or trying to enforce compliance with his worldview/mazeway because of ego issues?
By the very nature of the discussions, it's impossible (often) for the person asking the question to tell which is which. After all, if they knew what was a good answer, they wouldn't need to ask the question. This doesn't say anything at all negative about anyone asking a question. It's just a fact that a person who needs help on something is in a poor position to judge whether the answer given is good or not.
That's the problem with Joe's answers, from a technical viewpoint. The fact that they are often worded as, "You moron! You need to learn what a database is! It's not magnetic tape/punch cards/sarcastic item this month!", is another problem. Some people don't find that problematic. They ignore it, and try to parse any actual technical advice out. The usual filtering of signal from noise. Unfortunately, his signal:noise ratio is often quite poor, because he's padding the technical answer with personal attacks, in an attempt at puffing up his own ego and diminishing others.
Review a collection of his posts, and you'll see that this pattern is common to most of them. He doesn't do it every time, but much more often that not.
He's been taken to task many times over this, by many people. He is unable/unwilling to change his behavior. No way to know which. Most commonly, it would be a mix of both, of course.
Does that help clarify what's going on here?
Celko's constant references to "punch cards" and "COBOL" are anachronistic -- most people now likely have little idea what he is "talking"/ranting about.
Much worse, though, they're usually false. For example, against a "flag". Flags are still used all over the place in applications; they didn't, and won't, die out, even when we get to all solid state drives and cloud-only systems, or whatever else comes next.
Regardless of whether they know or not, there's an implicit assumption in his thinking that just because something is not the newest version, that makes it inferior.
The book Future Hype (http://www.amazon.com/Future-Hype-Myths-Technology-Change/dp/1576753700/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1348172885&sr=8-1&keywords=future+hype) goes over that flawed thinking in detail.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 20, 2012 at 2:31 pm
GSquared (9/20/2012)
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
I'm not a Celko agent =)Just try to understand =)
He once explained to me that he acts this way online, because it follows a method of teaching his wife uses. She beats students with a stick till they learn. I'm sure it's more complex than that (or she'd be in prison for assault and child abuse), but that's the essence of it. There's a school of Zen Buddhism that's believes that impact is what makes learning stick, and she's probably either a direct adherent to that, or following one of the schools that derives from it. I'm familiar with a variety of teachings on that subject, and with the studies that show a high failure rate on their methodology for anything other than rote memorization. In other words, it teaches data but suppresses understanding and imagination.
I'm told he's very different in person. Nice, polite, helpful, etc.
So, it's complex. I can easily see you (or anyone else) having trouble following it.
Ha-ha-ha! I think you are joking about beating =)
In Russia we have a proverb: "Every joke has a little bit of truth". =)
Any way our government recently issued a law about mandatory exam called EGE, and preparing to this one is exactly "teaches data but suppresses understanding and imagination." 100% hit phrase!
So, as MS says - "Be ready for what's next" =))) Hope in your country you have more clever government!
September 20, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Please, I am not an authority. Everything I have stated is simply my opinion. Why would Itzik choose Mr.Celko, you'd have to ask him. I have no idea, nor will I take a guess.
Thanks, I understood all the issue already! =)
September 20, 2012 at 2:40 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Ha-ha-ha! I think you are joking about beating =)
He's not, but we're talking a mideival training method.
In Russia we have a proverb: "Every joke has a little bit of truth". =)
Same here in America.
Any way our government recently issued a law about mandatory exam called EGE, and preparing to this one is exactly "teaches data but suppresses understanding and imagination." 100% hit phrase!
So, as MS says - "Be ready for what's next" =))) Hope in your country you have more clever government!
We don't, not in this. You're about 10 years behind us in 'No child left behind' and standardized testing. It was, and is, a complete mess.
Celko... yeah, I'll save that for another discussion.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
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September 20, 2012 at 2:40 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
p.s.(But who cares my opinion=))
All the opinions are valuable, either if they're correct or not, as everything is an opportunity to learn.
Regarding the beating, there's something in Wikipedia about that in the article about him:
Mr. Celko is known for wearing trademark three-piece black suits with cuff links and putting on a good performance when he speaks. Mr. Celko's wife is an ordained Soto Zen priest and he frequently uses koans and Keisaku replies on SQL forums
September 20, 2012 at 3:19 pm
Evil Kraig F (9/20/2012)
We don't, not in this. You're about 10 years behind us
You are to optimistic to evaluate. I think our country has left behind 50 years. And we are going back from democracy step by step! God, I hate mr. Putin and his corruption government (in case I won't write here tomorrow - i'm already in jail!)! But it's not the topic for sql forum.
How do you think about another phrase:
The successful man is one, that may have no page in facebook, but has in wikipedia.
Celko has. So, what do you think?
September 20, 2012 at 3:23 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Evil Kraig F (9/20/2012)
We don't, not in this. You're about 10 years behind usYou are to optimistic to evaluate. I think our country has left behind 50 years. And we are going back from democracy step by step! God, I hate mr. Putin and his corruption government (in case I won't write here tomorrow - i'm already in jail!)! But it's not the topic for sql forum.
Perhaps, I've been accused of optimism before... rarely, but it's happened. I'm sorry to hear your political system is falling apart however.
How do you think about another phrase:
The successful man is one, that may have no page in facebook, but has in wikipedia.
Celko has. So, what do you think?
So does Flipper, Lindsay Lohan, and Hitler. That a person is in wikipedia means that he is notorious enough that someone thought to write of him. It does not mean greatness, it means loud existance. I'll agree that he is loud... I'm just avoiding the pile-on.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
September 20, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Evil Kraig F (9/20/2012)
Perhaps, I've been accused of optimism before... rarely, but it's happened. I'm sorry to hear your political system is falling apart however.
Actually it is falling down from early 2000, when I was a child. In our country every man could be jailed just for nothing. Almost all the government people, use their position to steal money from budget and send them across board to offshore, because them and their children are not going to live in Russia. And they are not afraid of jail, because they are the law. One thing that they are afraid of is that they will have to live in Russia. That is why our government is so aware of ‘Magnitsky law’. I hope that your government will adopt ‘Magnitsky law’! Sorry about this politics, I may speak about it a lot. But it is not the suitable place.
Evil Kraig F (9/20/2012)
So does Flipper, Lindsay Lohan, and Hitler. That a person is in wikipedia means that he is notorious enough that someone thought to write of him. It does not mean greatness, it means loud existance. I'll agree that he is loud... I'm just avoiding the pile-on.
[/quote]
Don't know about Lindsay, but Hitler is quite unordinary person =) Yes he is a devil, but still an evil genius...
In anyway, I think that wiki may be a kind of measure of what the man has done, either good or bad... what he has left after him for humanity...
This is my IMHO, you may certainly agree or disagree with it.
September 20, 2012 at 4:10 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
That a person is in wikipedia means that he is notorious enough that someone thought to write of him.
It is also possible that person wrote about themselves and I wouldn't put it past certain people.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 20, 2012 at 4:11 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Evil Kraig F (9/20/2012)
Perhaps, I've been accused of optimism before... rarely, but it's happened. I'm sorry to hear your political system is falling apart however.Actually it is falling down from early 2000, when I was a child. In our country every man could be jailed just for nothing. Almost all the government people, use their position to steal money from budget and send them across board to offshore, because them and their children are not going to live in Russia. And they are not afraid of jail, because they are the law. One thing that they are afraid of is that they will have to live in Russia. That is why our government is so aware of ‘Magnitsky law’. I hope that your government will adopt ‘Magnitsky law’! Sorry about this politics, I may speak about it a lot. But it is not the suitable place.
Definitely. When billionaires aren't safe from the govt, nobody is. Putin is Stalin.
Obama's already started down that road here. Arresting the film maker on shabby excuses to placate muslim terrorists.
Set up a "hotline" so people could report any comments negative to Obama"Care". [Leftists ALWAYS lie with the official names for laws. Even in theory, although we know it won't work, the law can only provide insurance coverage not medical care. They are not the same.]
Similarly, and to link back up with the original topic, according to the Soviet constitution under Stalin, Russians technically had more rights than Americans did. But in practice, they actually had none of course. Likewise Obama"Care" -- forced to get coverage, but just try to get through all the hoops to actually get care.
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) "It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I'm wearing Milk-Bone underwear." "Norm", on "Cheers". Also from "Cheers", from "Carla": "You need to know 3 things about Tortelli men: Tortelli men draw women like flies; Tortelli men treat women like flies; Tortelli men's brains are in their flies".
September 20, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Jeff Moden (9/20/2012)
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
That a person is in wikipedia means that he is notorious enough that someone thought to write of him.It is also possible that person wrote about themselves and I wouldn't put it past certain people.
Yes, but poor Lindsay Lohan needed the attention, right? 🙂
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) "It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I'm wearing Milk-Bone underwear." "Norm", on "Cheers". Also from "Cheers", from "Carla": "You need to know 3 things about Tortelli men: Tortelli men draw women like flies; Tortelli men treat women like flies; Tortelli men's brains are in their flies".
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