September 20, 2012 at 11:54 am
CELKO (9/20/2012)
don't think you'll scare him. Maybe offend, but not scare. He comes across as one of those borderline sociopathy cases that have very thin skin, but assume everyone else has rhino-hide.
Am I the guy who keeps posting personal insults, like "borderline sociopath", etc.? Nope. I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic.
And you also post code that won't even parse. What's with that?
September 20, 2012 at 11:59 am
CELKO (9/20/2012)
don't think you'll scare him. Maybe offend, but not scare. He comes across as one of those borderline sociopathy cases that have very thin skin, but assume everyone else has rhino-hide.
Am I the guy who keeps posting personal insults, like "borderline sociopath", etc.? Nope. I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic.
Well, maybe sometimes the circumstances overwhelm developer and he has to work with what he has. Please, consider this in your answers!
September 20, 2012 at 12:05 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
CELKO (9/20/2012)
don't think you'll scare him. Maybe offend, but not scare. He comes across as one of those borderline sociopathy cases that have very thin skin, but assume everyone else has rhino-hide.
Am I the guy who keeps posting personal insults, like "borderline sociopath", etc.? Nope. I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic.
Well, maybe sometimes the circumstances overwhelm developer and he has to work with what he has. Please, consider this in your answers!
Now you are dreaming, just like the rest of us. 😉
September 20, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Lynn Pettis (9/20/2012)
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
CELKO (9/20/2012)
don't think you'll scare him. Maybe offend, but not scare. He comes across as one of those borderline sociopathy cases that have very thin skin, but assume everyone else has rhino-hide.
Am I the guy who keeps posting personal insults, like "borderline sociopath", etc.? Nope. I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic.
Well, maybe sometimes the circumstances overwhelm developer and he has to work with what he has. Please, consider this in your answers!
Now you are dreaming, just like the rest of us. 😉
Well, As I understood for now, I'm out of the topic and so don't understand your irony. Please, feel free to intoduce me with it! =)
Celko, for me, is very authoritative man, as he is co-author of Itzic's book. that is one of my favourite. But as I see there is smth wrong when dealing with real-life problems.
So feel free to let me now what is going on?
September 20, 2012 at 12:29 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Lynn Pettis (9/20/2012)
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
CELKO (9/20/2012)
don't think you'll scare him. Maybe offend, but not scare. He comes across as one of those borderline sociopathy cases that have very thin skin, but assume everyone else has rhino-hide.
Am I the guy who keeps posting personal insults, like "borderline sociopath", etc.? Nope. I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic.
Well, maybe sometimes the circumstances overwhelm developer and he has to work with what he has. Please, consider this in your answers!
Now you are dreaming, just like the rest of us. 😉
Well, As I understood for now, I'm out of the topic and so don't understand your irony. Please, feel free to intoduce me with it! =)
Celko, for me, is very authoritative man, as he is co-author of Itzic's book. that is one of my favourite. But as I see there is smth wrong when dealing with real-life problems.
So feel free to let me now what is going on?
Nope. Not going to taint you with my personal opinions regard Mr. Celko. Too bad he is a co-author with Itzik on a book as I like Itzik's books. I personally won't buy any books in which Mr. Celko is involved.
September 20, 2012 at 12:35 pm
CELKO (9/20/2012)
don't think you'll scare him. Maybe offend, but not scare. He comes across as one of those borderline sociopathy cases that have very thin skin, but assume everyone else has rhino-hide.
Am I the guy who keeps posting personal insults, like "borderline sociopath", etc.? Nope. I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic.
And calling me a troll wasn't at all personally insulting? Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce Mr. Kettle.
You get way more than pedantic, Joe. You do get pendantic (defined as: "1.too concerned with formal rules and details: too concerned with what are thought to be correct rules and details, e.g. in language", per the Bing dictionary, or "of a pendant":"one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge", per Merriam-Webster), but you also get extremely, intentionally offensive. Pedantry isn't necessarily rude. Unimaginative? Yes. Lacking in understanding of systems? Definitely. Overly concerned with unimportant details? By definition. Rude, arrogant, and insulting? No longer covered by the term "pedantic".
Yes, you pay too much attention to unimportant details. Yes, you are overly concerned with adherence to a school of thought and too little concerned with adherence to real needs and situations. Those are by-definition traits of pedants.
But you are also abbrasive, insulting, offensive, and any other synonym you care to name for that particular negative personality trait. The fact that you don't think you are, as dramatized by describing yourself the ways you have done in public fora, numerous times, as "brutally honest", or "adhering to a teaching method that uses beatings with a stick to make a point", or "I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic", or your insistence that I'm repeatedly insulting you and you're innocent of ever insulting me, that's where I see borderline sociopathy, which is simply a lack of ability to empathize correctly with those you are interacting with. It's a diagnosis, not any sort of deliberate insult. And, yes, I am by training/education and experience, able to diagnose that kind of thing. I only charge $25 per hour for that service, because I do it for a charitable organization, not a for-profit. I can send you a business card if you want one, but I don't think we're geographically proximate enough for that to be applicable. (Being a professional DBA pays my bills and is fun. Helping people overcome the barriers holding them back in life, like severe grief, pain, obsessive behavior, et al, is my passion. I'd do that even if I couldn't earn money at it.)
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 20, 2012 at 1:13 pm
CELKO (9/20/2012)
Am I the guy who keeps posting personal insults, like "borderline sociopath", etc.?
No... your ad hominem attacks are normally much worse, Joe.
Nope. I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic.
Not true, old friend and favorite nemesis... I know of at least one instance where you called someone a (literally) "baby killer" even though it was your code that missed an element in a medical supply hierarchy. 😉 Further, while it may be entirely true, saying that someone knows nothing of relational databases (as you so often do) is an ad hominem attack. Posting code that doesn't actually work on the given forum after such an attack makes you look like a troll rather than an educator. Then, there's one of your favorite rants... accusing someone of using 1950s technology (like that's a bad thing) isn't much better especially since you still feature an assembly-language-like push-stack with a While loop to do the simple conversion from an Adjacency List to Nested Sets. At the very least, it makes you a hypocrite.
I can't speak for anyone else (although it seems to be a common opinion) but it's the ad hominem attacks, the code that either doesn't work or isn't appropriate for the given forum, and your constant rants about ANSI, ISO, and portability that prompt return attacks on you. You're trying to make a point (and they're, many times, quite valid points) in your rants but the point is frequently lost because fewer people listen to bombastic rhetoric than someone just stating simple facts in a kind manner.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 20, 2012 at 1:22 pm
Lynn Pettis (9/20/2012)
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
CELKO (9/20/2012)
don't think you'll scare him. Maybe offend, but not scare. He comes across as one of those borderline sociopathy cases that have very thin skin, but assume everyone else has rhino-hide.
Am I the guy who keeps posting personal insults, like "borderline sociopath", etc.? Nope. I tell people their code is awful, and I get pedantic.
Well, maybe sometimes the circumstances overwhelm developer and he has to work with what he has. Please, consider this in your answers!
Now you are dreaming, just like the rest of us. 😉
What you have suggested Mr. Celko to do, has been already suggested plenty of times by us. Some are trying to build a community, others are just trying to rule with absolute power.
September 20, 2012 at 1:37 pm
Nope. Not going to taint you with my personal opinions regard Mr. Celko. Too bad he is a co-author with Itzik on a book as I like Itzik's books. I personally won't buy any books in which Mr. Celko is involved.
If you are talking to me "Lynn Pettis" thank you for that. Please consider that English is my not native language. I have excuse in my signature. That means that I could not probably recognize humor sometimes, that does not mean that I'm humorless =)
Back to conversation.
What is so wrong about Celko's co-authority? Is there is smth wrong with Itzic's book chapter written by Celko that I should be aware of?
What made you not to buy Celo's books - personal attitude or professional sense? That is important, please answer. If there are mistakes?
Regarding to Celko's answers.
Yes, they are sometimes rude, sometimes sound ideal, (sometimes don't work - but, please, be patient, look over script scenes, not inside). Also, consider that mathematician is very-very specific man. And in fact we are all due to mathematician Alan Turing about computers.
If all that is not covering boorish and rude answers by Celko, than it is crash of my ideals.
September 20, 2012 at 1:41 pm
Please, answering to me, take in to consideration I'm a newbie in this forum (do not have personal attitude to anyone). But not a newbie in sql server.
September 20, 2012 at 1:46 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Nope. Not going to taint you with my personal opinions regard Mr. Celko. Too bad he is a co-author with Itzik on a book as I like Itzik's books. I personally won't buy any books in which Mr. Celko is involved.
If you are talking to me "Lynn Pettis" thank you for that. Please consider that English is my not native language. I have excuse in my signature. That means that I could not probably recognize humor sometimes, that does not mean that I'm humorless =)
Back to conversation.
What is so wrong about Celko's co-authority? Is there is smth wrong with Itzic's book chapter written by Celko that I should be aware of?
What made you not to buy Celo's books - personal attitude or professional sense? That is important, please answer. If there are mistakes?
Regarding to Celko's answers.
Yes, they are sometimes rude, sometimes sound ideal, (sometimes don't work - but, please, be patient, look over script scenes, not inside). Also, consider that mathematician is very-very specific man. And in fact we are all due to mathematician Alan Turing about computers.
If all that is not covering boorish and rude answers by Celko, than it is crash of my ideals.
I simply refuse to provide him any financial gain from any book I may purchase. His total lack of professionalism that he has demonstrated on this (and other) sites have simply turned me off anything he may have to say, even if valid and/or accurate.
September 20, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Lynn Pettis (9/20/2012)
I simply refuse to provide him any financial gain from any book I may purchase. His total lack of professionalism that he has demonstrated on this (and other) sites have simply turned me off anything he may have to say, even if valid and/or accurate.
Wow! That is exactly what I'm asking for. You say "lack of professionalism". Regarding to points, you are authoritative man, so tell me please, why Itzik choose Celko as co-author?
September 20, 2012 at 1:58 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Nope. Not going to taint you with my personal opinions regard Mr. Celko. Too bad he is a co-author with Itzik on a book as I like Itzik's books. I personally won't buy any books in which Mr. Celko is involved.
If you are talking to me "Lynn Pettis" thank you for that. Please consider that English is my not native language. I have excuse in my signature. That means that I could not probably recognize humor sometimes, that does not mean that I'm humorless =)
Back to conversation.
What is so wrong about Celko's co-authority? Is there is smth wrong with Itzic's book chapter written by Celko that I should be aware of?
What made you not to buy Celo's books - personal attitude or professional sense? That is important, please answer. If there are mistakes?
Regarding to Celko's answers.
Yes, they are sometimes rude, sometimes sound ideal, (sometimes don't work - but, please, be patient, look over script scenes, not inside). Also, consider that mathematician is very-very specific man. And in fact we are all due to mathematician Alan Turing about computers.
If all that is not covering boorish and rude answers by Celko, than it is crash of my ideals.
The problem with Joe Celko's answers is that they assume specific rules are applicable as universal answers. For example, DUNS numbers are perfectly good key values for businesses, in certain circumstances. They aren't applicable as a universal rule, for reasons already gone over in more detail than necessary. But he insists they are, and resorts to name-calling against anyone who challenges that idea.
Lynn has a personal opinion about the way Joe handles his interactions with people, and is trying to employ embargo/boycott against Joe's published materials as a means of making a point on that.
So there is a mix of reasons to doubt anything Joe posts. On some things, he's very proficient and will give good advice. On other things, he'll try to browbeat you into doing things his way, even if it's not applicable or potentially harmful. Part of the problem is that it's very difficult to tell which answers are which. Is he making a good point, or trying to enforce compliance with his worldview/mazeway because of ego issues?
By the very nature of the discussions, it's impossible (often) for the person asking the question to tell which is which. After all, if they knew what was a good answer, they wouldn't need to ask the question. This doesn't say anything at all negative about anyone asking a question. It's just a fact that a person who needs help on something is in a poor position to judge whether the answer given is good or not.
That's the problem with Joe's answers, from a technical viewpoint. The fact that they are often worded as, "You moron! You need to learn what a database is! It's not magnetic tape/punch cards/sarcastic item this month!", is another problem. Some people don't find that problematic. They ignore it, and try to parse any actual technical advice out. The usual filtering of signal from noise. Unfortunately, his signal:noise ratio is often quite poor, because he's padding the technical answer with personal attacks, in an attempt at puffing up his own ego and diminishing others.
Review a collection of his posts, and you'll see that this pattern is common to most of them. He doesn't do it every time, but much more often that not.
He's been taken to task many times over this, by many people. He is unable/unwilling to change his behavior. No way to know which. Most commonly, it would be a mix of both, of course.
Does that help clarify what's going on here?
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 20, 2012 at 2:00 pm
I'm not a Celko agent =)
Just try to understand =)
September 20, 2012 at 2:04 pm
SomewhereSomehow (9/20/2012)
Lynn Pettis (9/20/2012)
I simply refuse to provide him any financial gain from any book I may purchase. His total lack of professionalism that he has demonstrated on this (and other) sites have simply turned me off anything he may have to say, even if valid and/or accurate.
Wow! That is exactly what I'm asking for. You say "lack of professionalism". Regarding to points, you are authoritative man, so tell me please, why Itzik choose Celko as co-author?
Please, I am not an authority. Everything I have stated is simply my opinion. Why would Itzik choose Mr.Celko, you'd have to ask him. I have no idea, nor will I take a guess.
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