August 28, 2013 at 12:14 pm
It's a great pity that we will always have bigots amongst us because humanity is not perfect; but that's how it is. I wish I had been there to hear the remark (and would probably have been pretty offensive if I had been) but I wasn't and I don't know who was involved so there's nothing I can do; except to continue to try to ensure that amongst my own circle any display of this attitude is known to be unacceptable.
I've known quite a few women who worked in technology, so that I know that it's just as easy for a women to be expert on a technical subject as it is for a man; it's also of course just as easy for a woman to be incompetent at communicating technical ideas as it is for a man. I haven't observed any difference in this respect between the sexes in my four decades plus in computing and IT.
Tom
August 28, 2013 at 12:32 pm
I am not surprised to hear this. Growing up in the South, and being in a technical field this is something that I work against every day. But once I prove that I know my stuff it goes out the window. But you have to get past the barriers that picked up by first impressions (because I am female) or from years of we just don't know our stuff.
Agreed there will always be a double standard no matter who or what you are. It comes down to what you can do and how well you can do it. Don't talk to the talk if you can't perform the job.
Experienced DBA.
August 28, 2013 at 12:35 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/28/2013)
Chris93147 (8/28/2013)
Disgusted? Yes. Surprised? No.When will the gender/race/religion/etc. issue finally be put down?
Never. We will always have prejudices and bigotry. We're human. We're frail and fallible as a species.
Only when we as a community of professionals no longer tolerate it. The individual who spoke this way does not deserve hate or violence. These two things only breed more hate and violence and quite frankly, the world has enough of both.
What is needed is correction. To have highly respectable individuals approach him and with sincerity try to get to the bottom of his belief that women are not up to technical discussions. The user group that he leads also needs to not tolerate this mentality and until proven otherwise he should be quietly removed from any leadership position.
We need to be role models for the entire community and the public at large. We are individual professionals with unique insights and experiences that can only add to the strength and knowledge of the community as a whole.
Yep, I wanted people to talk about this, and think about it. I'd love a frank discussion at all user groups about this.
Well said Steve. A world with no idiots would be lovely, though maybe a little unrealistic to expect.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
August 28, 2013 at 12:47 pm
To be fair, we need context. Was the female speaker technically qualified to speak or were they bringing in Jwow and Snookie? I have been to technical conferences where they have speakers who are there to talk about respecting feelings or diversity in the work place. I don't want to pay to listen to someone talk about those topics either. If I am at a tech conference, I want to talk about tech.
Now, if the speaker was qualified, this persons group should be banned from attending until they get a different leader. You should post their name for everyone to see. Call them out. We can all post here about our moral outrage, but that is no different than retweeting with the belief that we are actually saving starving kids in Africa. Unless we can take a real world action, we are just complaining.
August 28, 2013 at 12:56 pm
Hello
Maybe this person should meet my wife, head of Cardiology at her hospital. She'll have some technical content to deliver!
August 28, 2013 at 1:02 pm
Agreed, but let's make sure ALL the facts are uncovered first before calling anyone out. Otherwise, it just turns the whole situation into a witch hunt.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
August 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm
I'm hoping that there's a context missing here. I can sort of empathize with not wanting a "male", "female", "white", "whatever" speaker. I want a person who knows their subject matter and can present it well. There are some women in IT who really know their stuff and do a great job presenting and teaching. There are women who don't. There are men who don't. I tend to agree with some other thoughts that it would be great to just look at someone's creds and go from there, regardless of anything else.
If this was the whole context and the UG leader just doesn't want a woman speaker, period, ... that's pretty sad.
I have a daughter. I want her to be comfortable with math, science, and tech. She may or may not pursue a career in one of those fields and I'll support her if she does. I'll also support her if she goes a different route. I will make sure that she knows that those options are available to her, though.
August 28, 2013 at 2:31 pm
TravisDBA (8/28/2013)
Agreed, but let's make sure ALL the facts are uncovered first before calling anyone out. Otherwise, it just turns the whole situation into a witch hunt.:-D
Agree. I don't have context, nuance, or anything else to judge.
That's one reason I didn't want to get more specifics or call someone out. I wasn't there.
August 28, 2013 at 2:34 pm
TravisDBA (8/28/2013)
Agreed, but let's make sure ALL the facts are uncovered first before calling anyone out. Otherwise, it just turns the whole situation into a witch hunt.:-D
You know who else were women?
Witches.
Game, set, and match, Sexists.
August 28, 2013 at 3:38 pm
JLMayes (8/28/2013)
TravisDBA (8/28/2013)
Agreed, but let's make sure ALL the facts are uncovered first before calling anyone out. Otherwise, it just turns the whole situation into a witch hunt.:-DYou know who else were women?
Witches.
Off-topic: technically, men could also be witches. In Salem at least one men was convicted as a witch and put to death by putting a very big heavy stone on him (the correct term escapes my mind for the moment).
Need an answer? No, you need a question
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August 28, 2013 at 3:49 pm
Koen Verbeeck (8/28/2013)
JLMayes (8/28/2013)
TravisDBA (8/28/2013)
Agreed, but let's make sure ALL the facts are uncovered first before calling anyone out. Otherwise, it just turns the whole situation into a witch hunt.:-DYou know who else were women?
Witches.
Off-topic: technically, men could also be witches. In Salem at least one men was convicted as a witch and put to death by putting a very big heavy stone on him (the correct term escapes my mind for the moment).
Giles Cory. He was pressed to death. They used a door and a series of stones. Nasty. In Salem, the others were hanged. There were several men.
Reverend George Burroughs (hanged)
Giles Cory (pressed)
George Jacobs (hanged)
John Proctor (hanged)
Wilmot Reed (hanged)
Samuel Wardwell (hanged)
John Willard (hanged)
The rest were women. A few of the women were reprieved or escaped. A couple avoided sentence by getting (or claiming to be) pregnant. A couple died in jail. All the rest were hanged.
Poor, brave, Mr. Cory. He was singled out because he stood mute rather than plea guilty or not guilty. It took two days.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
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August 28, 2013 at 3:50 pm
To be honest I find this disgusting and have had first had accounts of this many times while working in a Tech Supply Company Support Department around the turn of the century. We had 3 very capable females.
If we had someone request a male technician specifically we would direct them to one of the females if they were available and if someone did not want to talk to a female after the initial service we would send them to a special extension which was in a bin at the back of the room with a phone wrapped in a towel.
We would all laugh when we heard the muffled ringer :).
When they rang back we would direct them back to a female. If they still had an issue they were directed to the manager which would explain that the only person with the right skills to help them at this time was a female and they could call back later if they wanted, if they opted to call back they went onto a register so the next time they called they would be directed to a female.
We seriously got 2 every week.
I worked there for 4 years and I know for some products they were actually the better technicians.
August 28, 2013 at 4:05 pm
Bottom line: It is human nature to cluster. There is good and bad in all of these clusters. Some of these clusters breed excessive fictions, and it is incumbent upon us to build the right mental mining models to filter out the bad in these clusters. Use SQL Server Data Mining to build character :hehe: (did I just REALLY SAY THAT?!?!).
Just remember, if it wasn't for the bad in these clusters, we would have no good examples to tell our children "how NOT to act". 🙂
August 28, 2013 at 4:10 pm
Shawn Richards (8/28/2013)
To be honest I find this disgusting and have had first had accounts of this many times while working in a Tech Supply Company Support Department around the turn of the century. We had 3 very capable females.If we had someone request a male technician specifically we would direct them to one of the females if they were available and if someone did not want to talk to a female after the initial service we would send them to a special extension which was in a bin at the back of the room with a phone wrapped in a towel.
We would all laugh when we heard the muffled ringer :).
When they rang back we would direct them back to a female. If they still had an issue they were directed to the manager which would explain that the only person with the right skills to help them at this time was a female and they could call back later if they wanted, if they opted to call back they went onto a register so the next time they called they would be directed to a female.
We seriously got 2 every week.
I worked there for 4 years and I know for some products they were actually the better technicians.
Yep the good old days when we everyone was so professional that we could afford to let customers go to the wastebasket. Many companies that had that mindset eventually went out of business. The more professional thing is to direct them to the person they wanted to work with. If the customer is paying, they get to dictate what their relationship with you will be. There are enough other companies out there that if you screw with a customer he not only can, but he will take his business elsewhere. But rest assured, you sure stood up for something. Don't forget to collect your unemployment check.
August 28, 2013 at 4:20 pm
I am not surprised that people hold such views. I am surprised that they want to share such views.
As a parent of two daughters who are capable young women I know from experience the valuable insight and technical understand that women bring to any field of endeavour.
Steve, I fully endorse you point of view.
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