August 28, 2013 at 7:28 am
Steve,
I would hope that you would at the very least forward this forum link to the person in question. Perhaps a solid verbal bashing by a growing group of peers would do more to enlighten him than anything else.
August 28, 2013 at 7:28 am
Lot of people ready to jump this manager's sh*t without any idea of the context other than second and third hand information.
But the discussion has morphed into an "attitutdes" argument. So let me address that. As I look around my IT shop, I see one woman out of a about 30. Our shop is demanding (in both time and quality). Our shop is very aggressive. It is also very tight. The one woman is also very aggressive and is respected for her knowledge. She does verge on the edge of b*tchiness, but it works in our shop, because of all the strong egos. She has carved a niche for herself. In my nearly 25 years in the IT realm, women do not seem to have lasted very long in highly aggressive shops, usually because they chose not to last very long. Or rather they choose not to do the things that a demanding shop requires.
Managers are interesting in that they have to construct teams that deliver. In all cases involving knowledge based arenas, females ARE ON AN EVEN playing field. But introducing the wrong female into an all-male team can have disastrous effects to the overall performance of the team, and introducing a second female can be even more destabilizing. In some cases, it is good to de-stabilize a team. In other cases, not so much.
Managers manage team and product risk. We are currently interviewing for a mid-range front-end developer. No women have even sent us resumes. If they had the requisite experience, we would have no problem interviewing them. But after interviewing ANY candidate, we meet and talk about qualifications. We talk about risk - to the team, to the projects, to the current team members, and to the prospective team member. We have disqualified 3 male candidates for risk to the projects and the team already.
Ladies, you want to be treated fairly. You want to be evaluated fairly. Bottom line is, we are being fair to you, just like we are being fair to every male who applies for the position. But understand that it isn't all about you. It is about a team. I will not jeopardize a well performing team just for the sake of politically motivated group-think. Show me how you mitigate risk to the team and lets talk.
j
August 28, 2013 at 7:31 am
craig.schlieve (8/28/2013)
Steve,I am incredibly disappointed in you. This article is disgusting. You are advocating that groups form that will cause fractures in the community to do the job that YOU should have done. When you heard that statement YOU could have done something. We don't need a group of women to get together and be an obvious target of distrust for the kind of people that would make that statement.
Everyone needs to stand up when they hear prejudice. People need to be held accountable. You had better in some way held this person accountable. (Not advocating releasing information on here without proof that would be begging for a fight no one wants to see)
Sometimes you need to be a MAN and not hid behind your computer like a child passive aggressively complaining about poor behavior. DO SOMETHING YOURSELF if you don't like it.
(and this is coming from a person who has a huge prejudice against a group of people that are a major part of the data industry, I just know I have it and make more of an effort to keep an open mind around this group.)
Whoa! Steve heard about this after the fact. There's nothing he could have done at the time since he wasn't there. He is doing the one thing he can do as far removed from the event as he is, calling out the behavior.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
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August 28, 2013 at 7:31 am
djackson 22568 (8/28/2013)
We don't have to agree with everyone, but it sure helps to listen.
We can always agree that we disagree 🙂
August 28, 2013 at 7:37 am
My two cents...
The 2 best programmers/designers I have ever worked with were both female. Each of them could tackle any problem, design any system, or just simply figure things out herself. It was a pleasure to work with them and I certainly learned tons from both ladies.
Not to mention that some of the best sessions I have been to at CodeStock and other conferences have been presented by women.
Tony
------------------------------------
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
August 28, 2013 at 7:45 am
Koen Verbeeck (8/28/2013)
craig.schlieve (8/28/2013)
Ahh then I see my morning caffeine kick hadn't kicked in and I misread. I apologize in that case. My statement that this needs to be an individual effort still stands and everyone that hears these kind of statements should immediately put it in their place. Efforts like Steve's to say that there is still a problem won't do much to fix the problem. It needs to be addressed right away.Sure, I agree completely.
A simple editorial will surely not solve the problem, but one can hope it inspires people to do the right thing if they ever are confronted with a similar situation.
Indeed. That is the force of an editorial.
Thank you, Steve, for another sad, but great read.
Johan
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but keeping both feet on the ground wont get you anywhere :w00t:
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August 28, 2013 at 7:51 am
Excellent discussion. I hope that the original UG leader that made the reported comment reads this article and the comments. Thanks for reporting on what you heard Steve. It's sad that there is a need to discuss this. But it is important to not let comments like this be heard only by the people involved in the original conversation but to be heard around the world. Prejudice does not stand up to scrutiny. To paraphrase Martin Luther King "DBAs should not judged by the color of their skin or their gender but by the content of their database servers" Let us hope that the attitude of this particular UG leader is isolated and never heard from again, but if this attitude does shows up again let us hope that those involved point it out publically and realize this is not the majority view.
Francis
August 28, 2013 at 7:52 am
Definitely NOT disappointed in Steve.
Good to know he too has a dream!
August 28, 2013 at 7:53 am
Insane. Two of the best (most productive, most sublime, etc) developers I have ever had the privilege of knowing are both women... One I worked for 20 years ago, the other I work with now.
Maybe part of the reason we have so few females in our ranks is not because of the technical nature, but because they don't want to put up with idiots.
August 28, 2013 at 8:03 am
jmoney 69422 (8/28/2013)
She does verge on the edge of b*tchiness, but it works in our shop, because of all the strong egos.j
So do you say that the men on your team "verge on the edge of b*tchiness" or just the one woman? If not, how do you refer to the manifestation of their "strong egos?"
August 28, 2013 at 8:03 am
djackson 22568 (8/28/2013)
First, groups that support a single gender, race or ethnicity are just as bad when it comes to continuing prejudice, and for those people who are ignorant enough to spout the BS you referenced, those groups only further the prejudice by making those people think the group is getting special treatment BECAUSE they aren't qualified!Please, no more special groups!
There's been a few statements in the comments section denigrating subgroups like Women in Technology and suggesting their mere existence perpetuates stereotypes.
I strongly disagree.
On the day that I became a citizen of the USA, the judge specifically said that being American doesn't mean that I shouldn't celebrate where I was born and the culture I was raised in.
I think the same logic applies here. Being "assimilated" into the wider community doesn't mean giving up or ignoring the fact that you're a woman (or a black man or a Chinese woman). We don't have to hide our differences entirely and pretend we are all one and the same in order to eliminate prejudice and stereotypes. We can celebrate our differences (which can include being members of subgroups) whilst still being respected in the wider community.
I heartily support the Women in Technology group.
Leonard
Madison, WI
August 28, 2013 at 8:04 am
Sad event but I agree with Hall of Fame that your response was unprofessional.
August 28, 2013 at 8:15 am
JLMayes (8/28/2013)
jmoney 69422 (8/28/2013)
She does verge on the edge of b*tchiness, but it works in our shop, because of all the strong egos.j
So do you say that the men on your team "verge on the edge of b*tchiness" or just the one woman? If not, how do you refer to the manifestation of their "strong egos?"
Here here. I was thinking the same thing. If a woman has a strong ego, she is a b*tch. Not so for the males, though.
I don't want to get into what this will inevitably turn into, but perhaps it is due to this kind of attitude that some shops just won't get any women to apply. Word does tend to get around.
**edited to correct awful grammar :hehe:
August 28, 2013 at 8:20 am
This is laughable. The speaker I am looking forward to the most at pass is a women. An I am sure other feel the same way. Real genius is making the complex simple and she is a real genius.
August 28, 2013 at 8:27 am
summer_rocks (8/28/2013)
JLMayes (8/28/2013)
jmoney 69422 (8/28/2013)
She does verge on the edge of b*tchiness, but it works in our shop, because of all the strong egos.j
So do you say that the men on your team "verge on the edge of b*tchiness" or just the one woman? If not, how do you refer to the manifestation of their "strong egos?"
Here here. I was thinking the same thing. If a woman has a strong ego, she is a b*tch. Not so for the males, though.
I don't want to get into what this will inevitably turn into, but perhaps it is due to this kind of attitude that some shops just won't get any women to apply. Word does tend to get around.
**edited to correct awful grammar :hehe:
Atleast with the special trait like "ego", i don't agree with you and think our world is not gender biased. If it is the word like b**ch for woman with big ego, then men are also referred to as d*gs and believe me there are many synonyms as well (which are not even there in dictionary). The issue is rather with the grown up kids who have not changed with time and still mentally involved with battle of sexes.
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