June 18, 2013 at 9:09 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item SQL Server Should Work for Us
June 19, 2013 at 2:15 am
Bring back Project Barcelona!
June 19, 2013 at 3:31 am
I wholeheartedly agree. A small team (even much smaller than 50) could go through loads of small issues which when combined will make SQL Server a much slicker provision. It would be far better that a team are tasked with this as their sole duty otherwise it is these sort of issues that never make it off of the "we'd like to do it but had more pressing issues" list.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
June 19, 2013 at 4:04 am
What bothers me is the need to have a product that the accidental and/or average DBA can use. DB Servers are maintained by people that have been trained and understand the inner workings of what they are using. It isn't like being a road sweeper: Simply pick up a brush and sweep.
Without the in-depth knowledge of memory architecture, index management, backup and recovery strategies along with at least basic knowledge of database design how could they hope to perform the job they need to on mission-critical information management systems. And lets face it: Databases represent for most companies a mission-critical investment that helps keep them mobile in a dynamic market.
This is one of the problems Microsoft has had with Windows (but only one :)). Because via the GUI everything is relatively easy to do, everyone that tampered with a Windows Server called themselves Administrators. They didn't think about the security implications associated with these machines. As long as people could access resources it must be working, right?
Do we really want that sort of attitude with our database servers simply because someone wants something to be made simpler or more intuitive? I find the SSMS intuitive enough. I understand the wording used, I know where to find the information that will help me in my work and I can intelligently argue one opinion against another so that the best solution can be found to a given problem.
I think the best thing that can happen is that these accidental and/or average DBAs realise their need to learn and that bosses realise the need for them to learn.
June 19, 2013 at 5:51 am
kevaburg (6/19/2013)
What bothers me is the need to have a product that the accidental and/or average DBA can use. DB Servers are maintained by people that have been trained and understand the inner workings of what they are using. It isn't like being a road sweeper: Simply pick up a brush and sweep.Without the in-depth knowledge of memory architecture, index management, backup and recovery strategies along with at least basic knowledge of database design how could they hope to perform the job they need to on mission-critical information management systems. And lets face it: Databases represent for most companies a mission-critical investment that helps keep them mobile in a dynamic market.
This is one of the problems Microsoft has had with Windows (but only one :)). Because via the GUI everything is relatively easy to do, everyone that tampered with a Windows Server called themselves Administrators. They didn't think about the security implications associated with these machines. As long as people could access resources it must be working, right?
Do we really want that sort of attitude with our database servers simply because someone wants something to be made simpler or more intuitive? I find the SSMS intuitive enough. I understand the wording used, I know where to find the information that will help me in my work and I can intelligently argue one opinion against another so that the best solution can be found to a given problem.
I think the best thing that can happen is that these accidental and/or average DBAs realise their need to learn and that bosses realise the need for them to learn.
Valid but unrealistic in my opinion.
Software should be as easy to use as possible but unfortunately a side effect is that people without proper training and experience get the responsibility thrust upon them. Or maybe the side effect is that the software is produce to help those who have this responsibility.
As for mission critical, not all so called accidental DBAs are dealing with mission critical databases. Useful: yes. Important: definitely. Essential: maybe.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
June 19, 2013 at 6:16 am
kevaburg (6/19/2013)
What bothers me is the need to have a product that the accidental and/or average DBA can use. DB Servers are maintained by people that have been trained and understand the inner workings of what they are using.
In a perfect world, yes.
In reality, DB servers are left unattended when knowledge and talent leave the organization and someone has to step up and learn.
I know how to do a lot of things well but that doesn't mean that I don't deserve tools to help me.
June 19, 2013 at 6:51 am
Gary Varga (6/19/2013)
kevaburg (6/19/2013)
What bothers me is the need to have a product that the accidental and/or average DBA can use. DB Servers are maintained by people that have been trained and understand the inner workings of what they are using. It isn't like being a road sweeper: Simply pick up a brush and sweep.Without the in-depth knowledge of memory architecture, index management, backup and recovery strategies along with at least basic knowledge of database design how could they hope to perform the job they need to on mission-critical information management systems. And lets face it: Databases represent for most companies a mission-critical investment that helps keep them mobile in a dynamic market.
This is one of the problems Microsoft has had with Windows (but only one :)). Because via the GUI everything is relatively easy to do, everyone that tampered with a Windows Server called themselves Administrators. They didn't think about the security implications associated with these machines. As long as people could access resources it must be working, right?
Do we really want that sort of attitude with our database servers simply because someone wants something to be made simpler or more intuitive? I find the SSMS intuitive enough. I understand the wording used, I know where to find the information that will help me in my work and I can intelligently argue one opinion against another so that the best solution can be found to a given problem.
I think the best thing that can happen is that these accidental and/or average DBAs realise their need to learn and that bosses realise the need for them to learn.
Valid but unrealistic in my opinion.
Software should be as easy to use as possible but unfortunately a side effect is that people without proper training and experience get the responsibility thrust upon them. Or maybe the side effect is that the software is produce to help those who have this responsibility.
As for mission critical, not all so called accidental DBAs are dealing with mission critical databases. Useful: yes. Important: definitely. Essential: maybe.
But we aren't talking about software as such. We are talking about an evolving entity which is what a database is. If I get punched in the stomach I gasp for breath which is exactly what you are doing when you misassign instance memory or don't have a backup when a backup is really needed.
"Valid but unrealistic" is how you put it. Is it unrealistic to pick up a book and read it or for an employer to get a course sorted? I don't think so.
But as long as there are people out there that market themselves as administrators when they clearly aren't (and you only have to look at some of the questions here to identify them) the consultants that get paid a huge amount of money to correct their mistakes will always have a job! So, realistically, where is the benefit to a company that ignore the lack of his adminisrtators knowledge.
To an extent, I agree with you and some of your conclusions. What I can't agree with is the apathy that far too many people have towards a subject that affects (in many instances) how a company reacts in a constantly changing market.
June 19, 2013 at 7:04 am
batgirl (6/19/2013)
kevaburg (6/19/2013)
What bothers me is the need to have a product that the accidental and/or average DBA can use. DB Servers are maintained by people that have been trained and understand the inner workings of what they are using.In a perfect world, yes.
In reality, DB servers are left unattended when knowledge and talent leave the organization and someone has to step up and learn.
I know how to do a lot of things well but that doesn't mean that I don't deserve tools to help me.
I'm not talking about not deserving the tools you need to help you. Most of the time the tools you need are an appropriate book and time to practise. As a professional administrator of Oracle and SQL Server databases I understand that in order to look after my companies data well (and it is a big company with a lot of data) I can't afford to not keep abreast of the software I am using. Sometimes that means using some of my own time to learn but it makes me (and other admins) the admins that our organisations deserve.
June 19, 2013 at 7:14 am
kevaburg (6/19/2013)
...As a professional administrator of Oracle and SQL Server databases...
And that is the crux of the matter.
There are lots of people out there who are responsible for looking after SQL Server installations who are not professional administrators. They may be professionals but professional developers, professional network administrators, professional (I am hoping you get the idea by now)...
Note that SQL Server was originally marketed as a database that did not require a full time DBA. I believe that this may be still true under some circumstances.
Having said that all this is irrelevant.
The tool should be more helpful when it can.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
June 19, 2013 at 7:33 am
The tools should be more refined. Absolutely. Making the tools easy to use and intuitive is a bonus.
If companies put people in charge of their SQL Server platform and are not willing to train them they either dont care about their data as much as they should or they dont know the person in charge doesnt know the platform. It's up to the DBA, accidental or otherwise, to identify the skills gap and come up with a plan, with the business on board, to correct this.
Ignored, they either get lucky, or it becomes a self correcting situation 😉
June 19, 2013 at 7:37 am
If you make the toolset good enough then SQL Server becomes that can be cradle to grave.
It can cope with numpties but in the hands of a master it can perform wonders.
You'd be amazed how many IT professionals don't know how strings work or what an interupt vector is, or have a rudimentary understanding of storage, or latency or a whole host of other nitty gritty details. They simply haven't needed to.
Would they have been better if they did understand the nitty gritty? I'd hope so if they had a desire to become tech leads and architects, but probably not if they had an aspiration for management.
I get the impression that what you are really asking is to be recognised as a skilled professional rather than a replaceable nobody. For that you have to develop soft skills or be golden boy to someone with the soft skills. I know it isn't fair but to quote a song "life's a bitch and then you die".
June 19, 2013 at 7:50 am
However why do we need to go to the maintenance plan's log? SQL Server includes the job history. It includes maintenance plans. Why doesn't the job understand there is a maintenance plan, read it's log, and return the information? Or give us a button on the job history that loads up the maintenance plan log? That's a simple thing to do, and isn't the job of software to make tasks easier?
This sounds like a useful feature missing from the SQL Server Management Studio application, rather than the database engine or SQL Agent. Perhaps Microsoft has intentionally capped the investment on SSMS, implementing basic management functionality, thinking that 3rd party tool vendors or add-ins will fill in the gaps.
Another feature missing from SSMS 2008/2012 out of the box, something that I consider to be basic, is information schema search. This was included in the old v2000 Query Analyzer. However, Red Gate's SQL Search add-in can be downloaded for free and is even better.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
June 19, 2013 at 8:58 am
Steve, you are right on the money, the user interface of a product like this should be more sophisticated, especially with the prices that we are paying now for licensing.
June 19, 2013 at 8:59 am
Steve, you are right on the money, the user interface of a product like this should be more sophisticated, especially with the prices that we are paying now for licensing.
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 28 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply