May 22, 2008 at 6:57 am
Hi, I would the opinion of the very experienced DBAs and developers in regards to:
1. Writing sql server certifications vs gaining experience
2. Or better still having both
Is it really important to be certified, also considering the fact that I might have to finance it myself and not my employers, not enough money to live on nowadays 🙂
May 22, 2008 at 7:26 am
I'm not actively against certifications, but I sure don't care about them. I'm much more interested in what you know and how you show it than that you passed a trivia test. Others will absolutely disagree. I always hear the tie-breaker argument. You know, two exactly equally qualified candidates, the one with the certification wins... BS! First, there aren't going to be two exactly equally qualified candidates. Second, one of them is much more likely to fit in with your team or your corporate culture than the other. Of the perfectly equally matched candidates, I'm more likely to pick one based on interest in the martial arts above a certification.
I think the biggest place certifications help is when you have little to no experience. It demonstrates some knowledge.
Now everyone can disagree with me.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 22, 2008 at 7:54 am
If you didn't know something didn't exist, how could you ever learn about it?
That is one area where I feel certification can be good, it encourages you to read and learn about aspects of a technology that you otherwise may not have come across.
Often, there is more than one way to achieve a solution, instead of just knowing about one of the ways, wouldn't it be better to have basic knowledge of the other methods as well?
May 22, 2008 at 8:15 am
akeelm_uk (5/22/2008)
If you didn't know something didn't exist, how could you ever learn about it?That is one area where I feel certification can be good, it encourages you to read and learn about aspects of a technology that you otherwise may not have come across.
Often, there is more than one way to achieve a solution, instead of just knowing about one of the ways, wouldn't it be better to have basic knowledge of the other methods as well?
Oh absolutely. Now, where during a certification test do you demonstrate the knowledge that joining a table valued function to a table valued function might behave differently than joining two tables together. From the books online and the certification training manuals, will you be able to demonstrate enough knowledge of what happens there?
Let's take one example... When SQL Server 2000 came out, every single bit of documentation, including the stuff from Microsoft said that you should use table variables instead of temporary tables because they're stored in memory. If you were certified, and that's the basis of your knowledge, then that's all you knew and with certification as the basis of your knowledge, all you needed. Over the years, the information slowly drifts out from various sources that temporary tables and table variables are both stored in memory and in the tempdb in an almost identical fashion. Table variables don't maintain statistics (except on a primary key if one is defined for the table) so storing more than a few rows in them will lead to serious performance issues because execution plans defined against them can only use one (1) row as the basis for deciding how to do the joins against the table causing all sorts of major performance headaches. So, you can be "certified" and completely clueless as to this issue. Practical knowledge requires constant growth and testing of assumptions that just aren't part of the process of cerification.
I'm not against certification at all. I know that there is a 5-10% salary increase associated with it and that's nothing to laugh at. I just don't find certification a valid reason to assume ANY level of knowledge beyond the basics. That knowledge needs to be demonstrated through other means.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 22, 2008 at 8:34 am
Tend to agree with Grant. Certification allows you to prove that you've learned things and been tested, but if you can't perform the things because you crammed and didn't learn them, then it doesn't matter. You won't get hired by me.
Get the certification when you have some practice and experience.
May 22, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (5/22/2008)
Tend to agree with Grant. Certification allows you to prove that you've learned things and been tested, but if you can't perform the things because you crammed and didn't learn them, then it doesn't matter. You won't get hired by me.
Nor me. I do differentiate between people with and without a certification though. The ones with one get held to a higher standard. :hehe:
Grant Fritchey (5/22/2008)
Of the perfectly equally matched candidates, I'm more likely to pick one based on interest in the martial arts above a certification.
Now I'm curious. Why?
Or was that just a way-out example?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 22, 2008 at 12:54 pm
GilaMonster (5/22/2008)
Steve Jones - Editor (5/22/2008)
Tend to agree with Grant. Certification allows you to prove that you've learned things and been tested, but if you can't perform the things because you crammed and didn't learn them, then it doesn't matter. You won't get hired by me.Nor me. I do differentiate between people with and without a certification though. The ones with one get held to a higher standard. :hehe:
Grant Fritchey (5/22/2008)
Of the perfectly equally matched candidates, I'm more likely to pick one based on interest in the martial arts above a certification.Now I'm curious. Why?
Or was that just a way-out example?
I agree on holding the certified to a higher standard.
I picked martial arts just because its something that I'm into. I could have picked kayaking or Scouts or Dario Argento movies and arrived at the same conclusion.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 22, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Thanks for all the contributions.
May 23, 2008 at 12:22 am
Grant Fritchey (5/22/2008)
I picked martial arts just because its something that I'm into.
What style?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 23, 2008 at 5:57 am
I started in Seido in NYC where I got to green. Then I moved and restarted in Goju Ryu where I got to green. That dojo imploded. So I looked around and thought about things and made a switch. Instead of the traditional stuff, I moved to a more street-oriented style and landed at Ken-Ryu Kenpo. It's derived from Nick Cerio's stuff but pulls in whatever works. Not only do we learn from our own system, but we're going through the Ed Parker syllabus, working in some MMA training (although intentionally going to the ground still seems insane). I'm focusing on the katana as a weapon.
BTW, keeping this a bit on topic, I'd be perfectly happy to just study all this stuff and learn, but they do ask us to test every so often. So I've got a level of certification, but I still look at it as proof of study, not mastery. Mastery is proven in doing things.
Do you study?
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 23, 2008 at 6:40 am
Grant Fritchey (5/23/2008)
BTW, keeping this a bit on topic, I'd be perfectly happy to just study all this stuff and learn, but they do ask us to test every so often. So I've got a level of certification, but I still look at it as proof of study, not mastery. Mastery is proven in doing things.
Agreed. Tha's my take on certs as well. They should be proof of your academic study of a subject, not your practical knowledge or mastery.
Mastery of a subject is never obtained from a book. It comes from doing and doing often.
Do you study?
Traditional Aikido (aikikai style). I'd love to study kenjitsu (not kendo) as well, but the closest instructor is 500km away.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 23, 2008 at 6:56 am
Oooh. Excellent. I've got a lot of respect for Aikido. Very useful techniques. We've had people teach seminars on it so that we at least have a level of understanding of the methodologies although nothing approaching a working knowledge let alone anything more. Great stuff.
My instructor is teaching the sword, but it's based off his personal study, not from a particular style or system. If pressed, I'd call it iai-jutsu. Nothing focuses the mind quite like swinging three feet of sharpened steel around your head.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
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