March 30, 2015 at 2:05 pm
My experience is similar to Ishanahan's above, and is unlikely to change in the near future, for a number of reasons. But it is nice to know I am not the only one in this situation - even if not very reassuring!
March 30, 2015 at 5:38 pm
Love the article and the conversation. We have to have those times where we take on large amounts of knowledge rapidly. And even when we have been at this for decades you still have to learn new tools and techniques.
We are asked from time to time, how have you done this for so long. Doing the same thing gets boring right? They do not understand that the world of IT changes so fast that by the third time you do something there is a new better way to do it, for we live in a vocation of constant change.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
March 31, 2015 at 4:06 am
Takes a lot of time and effort to unlearn bad practice that were learnt in the early years.
Too many people are stuck in their ways and take any code critique as an attack against them and if anything become more entrenched in their views.
For myself I dont have a degree in CS and am self taught. Most of those I have worked with that do have a CS degree dont tend to understand databases to any depth, but instead want to see the database as a dumb store and do all those pesky reports. Probable due to the university lectures making it a dry subject.
It used to be a case when they were saying there is an IT shortage and we need more people. To me its more about quality than quantity. You only get that if the person is willing and the workplace (including the other staff) are willing to help improve everyone else. Current place would make a cat look altruistic by comparison.
March 31, 2015 at 5:22 am
Yet Another DBA (3/31/2015)
...For myself I dont have a degree in CS and am self taught. Most of those I have worked with that do have a CS degree dont tend to understand databases to any depth, but instead want to see the database as a dumb store and do all those pesky reports...
I have seen both CS graduates and non-CS graduates in both the understanding and non-understanding categories.
For graduates it depends so much on the institution attended and even the courses/modules taken. For both it seems that interest has a huge impact as usual as well as their peers.
I must say that CS graduates who studied databases as opposed to those who just utilised them have, in my experience, a better understanding and appreciation for them.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
March 31, 2015 at 5:28 am
Yet Another DBA (3/31/2015)
Most of those I have worked with that do have a CS degree dont tend to understand databases to any depth, but instead want to see the database as a dumb store and do all those pesky reports.
Be careful of making generalisations. Personally I have 2 and am about to finish a 3rd degree in CS. I generally see people thinking the DB is a dumb data store until they learn otherwise, whether they learn otherwise from a degree, professional training or from a colleague.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 31, 2015 at 6:01 am
GilaMonster (3/31/2015)
...Personally I have 2 and am about to finish a 3rd degree in CS...
Having three myself should we be recording "Woman in Love"???
(This is a joke - not the degrees - as anyone who knows me knows I don't can't sing.)
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
March 31, 2015 at 6:01 am
Gary Varga (3/31/2015)....
I must say that CS graduates who studied databases as opposed to those who just utilised them have, in my experience, a better understanding and appreciation for them.
Gold dust !!
March 31, 2015 at 6:10 am
GilaMonster (3/31/2015)
Yet Another DBA (3/31/2015)
Most of those I have worked with that do have a CS degree dont tend to understand databases to any depth, but instead want to see the database as a dumb store and do all those pesky reports.Be careful of making generalisations. Personally I have 2 and am about to finish a 3rd degree in CS. I generally see people thinking the DB is a dumb data store until they learn otherwise, whether they learn otherwise from a degree, professional training or from a colleague.
The "Most of those I have worked with " is based on experience and not some slapdash generalisation 😛 I realise that not everyone will have the same experience and there will be some lucky dba who will be working with an array of developers who will all know and love databases. Somehow I doubt it will be me in the backwaters of the UK.
Just out of curiosity 2 degrees in CS??
March 31, 2015 at 6:41 am
Yet Another DBA (3/31/2015)
The "Most of those I have worked with " is based on experience and not some slapdash generalisation
Fair enough. 🙂
I think the majority of people I've worked with have limited appreciation for databases, regardless of degree of not.
Just out of curiosity 2 degrees in CS??
B.Sc majoring in CS and Physics.
South Africa has a 1-year postgrad degree shoved in between B.Sc and M.Sc, we call it the Honours degree, so B.Sc(Hons): Computer Science
Then I'm finishing up last corrections on the dissertation for the M.Sc, they've already examined it and once I get the corrections approved I'll get the degree.
So within a couple of months it should be 1 undergrad and 2 postgrad degrees in Computer Science.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 31, 2015 at 6:43 am
GilaMonster (3/31/2015)
Yet Another DBA (3/31/2015)
Most of those I have worked with that do have a CS degree dont tend to understand databases to any depth, but instead want to see the database as a dumb store and do all those pesky reports.Be careful of making generalisations. Personally I have 2 and am about to finish a 3rd degree in CS. I generally see people thinking the DB is a dumb data store until they learn otherwise, whether they learn otherwise from a degree, professional training or from a colleague.
Databases are like painting.
Takes time to be an artist.
Some pick it up, some have natural abilities, some might never be great.
Vision for the big picture, rather than each project as a standalone, usually is a key.
Any company having a mentoring / apprenticeship program likely values vision for the bigger picture.
And views reliable code as an asset.
March 31, 2015 at 8:30 am
Greg Edwards-268690 (3/31/2015)
GilaMonster (3/31/2015)
Yet Another DBA (3/31/2015)
Most of those I have worked with that do have a CS degree dont tend to understand databases to any depth, but instead want to see the database as a dumb store and do all those pesky reports.Be careful of making generalisations. Personally I have 2 and am about to finish a 3rd degree in CS. I generally see people thinking the DB is a dumb data store until they learn otherwise, whether they learn otherwise from a degree, professional training or from a colleague.
Databases are like painting.
Takes time to be an artist.
Some pick it up, some have natural abilities, some might never be great.
Vision for the big picture, rather than each project as a standalone, usually is a key.
Any company having a mentoring / apprenticeship program likely values vision for the bigger picture.
And views reliable code as an asset.
nice image. I sometimes think this of software as well. It's more of an art than a science at times.
March 31, 2015 at 10:56 am
The Database Architect that took me from the shop floor to work in the data warehouse group was a true gem.
20 years working with him building a the DW, and we built one cube from it.
If you've ever done this pulling data from multiple sources, you'd appreciate the modeling exercise.
And it was always fun to see the look on the consultants faces when they saw the minimal hardware it ran on.
300 dimensions, and over 500 measure groups.
Truly was a piece of art. But all built by a few older guys, with great basic foundational skills.
And very few middle of the night calls.
Guess I got lucky - not many get in on the ground floor of a project like this.
And have very little churn in the department.
When I first started in the department, we only had sales in the DW, and no cube.
So informally, I was an apprentice of sorts.
There were only 3 of us, and a half time RPG programmer, and it was a lot of white boarding and a lot of 'what if' before we wrote the code.
Even learned enough RPG to help map out the code before I left.
And sometimes the blind squirrel found the nut helping Don debug some RPG code.
More like being in school than work a lot of the time.
April 3, 2015 at 2:00 pm
It would be great if more companies used an apprenticeship approach, but that luxury isn't often available (usually because there is no manpower and no budget). It's a shame.
One benefit that isn't often mentioned... Often the teacher learns as much or more from the process as the student. Trying to explain a topic to someone else requires you to think about the subject at a level beyond what's required in day to day use. Rather than just doing it, you have to think about the purpose of what is being done and why you don't use some alternative method. THEN you can explain it to your student.
April 5, 2015 at 8:13 pm
It's way too expensive for most companies to do that. It has too much risks in some cases. Even if you do take it on, the team has to be fully committed to making it happen.
I just so happened to respond to a stack question from a junior developer who was struggling in her environment because senior developers were not helping her or the other juniors on the team. She was only 2 years into the career and it was in the video game industry where she specifically didn't aim to join, but was recruited specifically off LinkedIn.com.
In her case, which is something I've experienced in my long history working on large-scale video game development, she would receive so much push back from the senior devs. She started out asking for help. It got her nowhere. Now she is keeping to herself trying to do the best she can. She has given up on the system and doesn't know what to do.
In cases like that, both leadership and the team have to help the juniors. If not everyone is on board, especially the team, you have cases like hers. It's bad for the team, bad for the product and bad for the business on all ends.
Which if you ask me, is a real shame, especially in her case. Seniors who choose to ignore the help of the team are pretty much just adding to the problem.
April 5, 2015 at 8:20 pm
Wanted to comment on my junior role separately.
I consider myself a junior in the database world because I am only 2 years in going on my third. I was handed a rather large task as a junior that has spiraled into a database pushing billions of records. I got thrown into the deep end pretty quick where I can honestly say I'm a junior doing senior-level work. But, I also had experience working on large-scale software development projects for 7 years. How hard could databases be? 😉
For people like me, you really don't have anyone because you are the only one. I wish I did at the time, but that's how it goes for some. It was even the same in the bigger companies I worked for that only entailed 1 or 2 database based roles and dozens upon dozens of software developers.
Now that the company I currently work for has been acquired, it came with an amazing team of .NET and SQL guys. So now, I get to bounce ideas off experienced people and refine all the good habits I have as well clean up all the bad habits.
As someone who is self taught, I have to be lean and not stubborn. Those that cannot learn new tricks in my experience, sink to the bottom. Technology is changing too fast, regardless of where you got your knowledge. You have to continue to adapt and better yourself without compromise.
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