April 23, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Sean Lange (4/23/2012)
Brandon Leach (4/23/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/23/2012)
jay-h (4/23/2012)
A big problem with Facebook, Google etc is they insist on your 'true name' rather than nickname or pseudonym.Not sure you need a "real name". You do need to supply an email, but there are lots of things you don't need to share on there, including your real information. AFAIK, most of it isn't validated outside of an email.
Several of my friends have had Facebook threaten to close their account for not using their real names. It's a requirement and I believe is in the terms of service agreement.
They must not check this too closely. I have an account under the name "Head Retread". They have never mentioned anything to me about not using my real name. 😀
They don't often catch it, but if they do then they take action. They found one of my friends using a false name, and then hit others who were mutual connections. I think it more of an if its staring them in the face type of thing.
April 23, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Steve,
You are right to have concerns, but it doesn't sound like you have taken the time to think this all the way through, or maybe, you don't feel comfortable expressing an opinion "in your public persona" about how bad this really is. 🙂 (Since I am sure you thought it through, it must be something else!)
That is the issue here. Can we be comfortable stating our opinions, and if not, is it because those who speak the loudest are forcing their opinions on us?
Free speech is part of our constitutional rights for a reason. If anyone is uncomfortable expressing concerns over this as it might affect their job, that is an issue. I bet a lot of people are concerned! There are laws governing a company asking certain questions in a job interview. Requiring a Facebook password is a method of working around those laws and is being used to discriminate. If a women goes into a job interview, and is otherwise qualified for the job, but loses out because her Facebook has posts about her deadbeat ex-husband not paying his child support, and how her four kids need medical treatment that she can't afford until she gets insurance, isn't that something we ought to be concerned about? What if someone refuses to hire someone after determining that they are gay, Christian, Jewish or Muslim, or their cholesterol test came back high, or their mom just died of breast cancer so they are making an appointment today? There is no end to the quite personal things that people discuss that are none of the company's business whatsoever!
Can I do the job, yes or no! Hire me based on that!
In another response I asked if it is OK to violate security policy and give out passwords if it is "for the greater good". Our government on both sides has been using this argument for a long time (although it is far worse right now!) and companies are starting to do the same thing. We all have opinions based on our religious views, is it acceptable to the reader to allow hidden discrimination that is impossible to prove simply because the applicant is "different"? Where does it end, and who gets to decide what is acceptable?
What someone does at work is the companies business. What they do outside of work is not, unless it directly impacts the employee's ability to do their job. Knowing something "might" result in their being a less than idea employee isn't a fair thing to use in a hiring decision, unless we are talking about things like drug testing semi drivers or pilots.
We can read the original post and think "this is a good thing, it allows companies to hire better people", but only if we ignore the fact that it will also allow them to discriminate at will, with absolutely no recourse to those discriminated againts.
Dave
Dave
April 23, 2012 at 1:08 pm
TravisDBA (4/23/2012)
"If I were asked in an interview, I would politely decline and state that I have set up privacy for a reason. There are things I post to share with friends and family that are not meant to be available for the general public. In my mind, these are akin to photo albums or letters I've written that I store in my house. Anything that I post publicly I take responsibility for, but private posts are private. "I undertand your feelings, Steve. However, one question does come to mind. Why would you post "private" information on the Internet in the first place? Particularly, on a "security hole" like Facebook?:-D
Humor noted:
We all need to keep in mind that while this question was posed to a group of tech people, it affects everyone. Maybe part of our responsibility is to join the fight against instrusions that put all of us at risk.
Hmmm, this is my "private" public face, isn't it?
GRIN
Dave
Dave
April 23, 2012 at 1:13 pm
djackson 22568 (4/23/2012)
We can read the original post and think "this is a good thing, it allows companies to hire better people", but only if we ignore the fact that it will also allow them to discriminate at will, with absolutely no recourse to those discriminated againts.Dave
No offense but how could you possibly interpret this as a good thing?
On a somewhat related topic I know of an interviewer who kept somewhat up to date with current computer gaming trends, specifically WoW. They would bring the topic into the interview discussion. This is incredibly deceitful in my opinion because they were trying to make the interviewee feel comfortable. They of course would open up discussing gaming thinking they were among friends. What they did not know is that this person refuses to hire gamers because they feel they are less focused on work and are constantly finding ways to spend more time playing games. This type of discrimination is everywhere, this type of facebook thing just goes way overboard.
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April 23, 2012 at 1:13 pm
dbrumley (4/23/2012)
I think it's a mistake to consider this an issue about what's safe to post online and what's not. The employer is asking for the keys to something that is locked.I think this belongs in the same category as if the prospective employer wanted to sleep with your wife before they would give you a job.
Now that made me chuckle!
Dave
Dave
April 23, 2012 at 1:22 pm
We all need to keep in mind that while this question was posed to a group of tech people, it affects everyone. Maybe part of our responsibility is to join the fight against instrusions that put all of us at risk.
Maybe Dave, but please remember that Facebook says, 'Privacy is theft,' because they're selling your lack of privacy to the advertisers who might show up one day. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
April 23, 2012 at 1:26 pm
djackson 22568 (4/23/2012)
Steve,You are right to have concerns, but it doesn't sound like you have taken the time to think this all the way through, or maybe, you don't feel comfortable expressing an opinion "in your public persona" about how bad this really is. 🙂 (Since I am sure you thought it through, it must be something else!)
I hope I didn't give the impression I think this is acceptable, and if it becomes a collusion among employers, or a pseudo-collusion, then it's a big problem.
We have freedom of speech and I think that's a big deal. I think we ought to be able to express our thoughts, ideas, opinions, and impressions of the world, but that comes with responsibility as well. Fire in a crowded theater is a start, disclosing national security secrets, or even corporate secrets is another. Those are (I hope) edge cases, but there is some level of responsibility here as well.
I'm not sure I want a law enforcement official suggesting that drugs are acceptable, or drinking and driving isn't a big deal when he represents his agency. I'm not sure I want an IT guy working for me talking about SQL Injection not being a big deal, or that every developer he works with is an idiot because they allow SQL Injection. There are some reasonable expectations about how you conduct yourself, and posting in social media is somewhat equivalent to shouting something in the town square.
It's a really weird line for me. I don't think companies should be allowed to require this, but at the same time, I'm not sure I want a law prohibiting it. What I want is more common sense and reasonable-ness, like you mentioned. Hire me if I can do the job (and we get along).
I recommend you draw the public/private (or semi-public?) line. Show your employer that you don't talk politics or religion, or anything inappropriate in your professional life, and tell them your non-professional life is nunya, as in none of your business.
April 23, 2012 at 1:28 pm
jay-h (4/23/2012)
terrance.steadman (4/23/2012)
..My apologies if I seem a bit harsh but sometimes the strength is not in attacking your foes for your own glory, but in letting the foe go by so you can save others that would have been hurt by the battle.This is, of course, what the bad actors depend on: no one is willing to stand up to them.
Not fair. We each have the right to decide when we want to stand up for something and when we don't. Personally I think your bad actor analogy is spot on, and I would extend that to us likely having similar opinions on what those bad actors say, but I don't have the right to tell anyone else when they have to stand up to that bad actor. All it take is for good men to do nothing, but that does not mean all good mean must do something. Just enough. Currently not enough are...
Dave
Dave
April 23, 2012 at 1:30 pm
TravisDBA (4/23/2012)
We all need to keep in mind that while this question was posed to a group of tech people, it affects everyone. Maybe part of our responsibility is to join the fight against instrusions that put all of us at risk.
Maybe Dave, but please remember that Facebook says, 'Privacy is theft,' because they're selling your lack of privacy to the advertisers who might show up one day. 😀
And Google considers it a "very bad thing" that Facebook can't be crawled by their spiders, at least not past the privacy filter, because then they can't sell your data to advertisers too! (Sergey Brin said so in a recent interview.) They consider any data being private at all to be a violation of the whole purpose of the internet, at least from their perspective. Except, of course, anything that's proprietary to Google! That has to be kept behind lock and key and guard dogs that shoot bees out of their mouths at you, and all that.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
April 23, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Sean Lange (4/23/2012)
djackson 22568 (4/23/2012)
We can read the original post and think "this is a good thing, it allows companies to hire better people", but only if we ignore the fact that it will also allow them to discriminate at will, with absolutely no recourse to those discriminated againts.Dave
No offense but how could you possibly interpret this as a good thing?
I didn't say I did, I said we could read it and think that. I am not included in the subset of people who would think that way.
Dave
Dave
April 23, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Relying on the Internet to protect your privacy is like asking a peeping tom to install your window blinds.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
April 23, 2012 at 1:41 pm
And yet, you would be upset if you found somebody outside your bedroom handing out binoculars to passersby...
April 23, 2012 at 1:42 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (4/23/2012)
djackson 22568 (4/23/2012)
... There are some reasonable expectations about how you conduct yourself, and posting in social media is somewhat equivalent to shouting something in the town square.....
But this is not shouting if you post in private, it's no different from a conversation at the pub... except that this involves demanding the right to review what you said at the pub last year or 3 years ago.
Now we are not talking about criminal issues, because there are already specific mechanisms (with limits) for handling those. This is fishing expeditions, including after-the-fact interpretations of conversations that were never meant for others to view.
The human need for a certain level privacy (and privacy can include interactions with friends) at a primal psychological level. The frightening lesson of 1984 was not so much totalitarianism, which has been around a long time, but the complete crushing of the individual's control over his own thoughts.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
April 23, 2012 at 1:43 pm
djackson 22568 (4/23/2012)
jay-h (4/23/2012)
terrance.steadman (4/23/2012)
..My apologies if I seem a bit harsh but sometimes the strength is not in attacking your foes for your own glory, but in letting the foe go by so you can save others that would have been hurt by the battle.This is, of course, what the bad actors depend on: no one is willing to stand up to them.
Not fair. We each have the right to decide when we want to stand up for something and when we don't. Personally I think your bad actor analogy is spot on, and I would extend that to us likely having similar opinions on what those bad actors say, but I don't have the right to tell anyone else when they have to stand up to that bad actor. All it take is for good men to do nothing, but that does not mean all good mean must do something. Just enough. Currently not enough are...
Dave
Pick your fights. Definitely.
The point is, don't let something slide on the basis of "someone else will surely handle that". If you have to let it slide, let it be because "I'm busy fighting more important battles right now and can't be distracted from those".
I'm sure we all agree that employers shouldn't be asking for Facebook passwords as part of the screening process. But does that really compare in magnitude to the slave trade in Europe (mostly sex slaves)? Any number of issues are far more important than Facebook privacy, in my opinion.
So definitely pick your battles. There are plenty of them out there, and they don't look to be running out of serious issues any time soon.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
April 23, 2012 at 1:45 pm
dbrumley (4/23/2012)
And yet, you would be upset if you found somebody outside your bedroom handing out binoculars to passersby...
Particularly, if I gave them the binoculars in the first place. That's my whole point. Don't open yourself up and post private stuff on the Internet in the first place.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
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