October 18, 2012 at 7:24 am
Don't let the advice about 24x7 turn you off of this too heavily. I've been on-call, 24x7, for the past 10 years, and it's only come up once when it was actually inconvenient. That doesn't mean it can't happen more frequently, just means it won't necessarily happen a lot to you.
The one time it did happen to me, I was actually already on my way to the office. But I can't manage a database while I'm driving. Not quite that suicidal, I guess. With a 1-hour commute, it actually mattered, because I could have handled the whole thing from home, in less time than it took to finish the commute. The company survived, and my job survived, but it was inconvenient.
So don't let the possible scare you away from the opportunity. Unless there's real reason to expect frequent problems. If so, the main emphasis of your DBA work should be on finding why there are frequent problems, and what you can do to prevent them. Preventing them from coming up in the first place is much, much better than having to go into panic mode and fix something while it's blowing up.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
October 18, 2012 at 7:56 am
Brandie Tarvin (10/18/2012)
Honestly, it doesn't matter what you think it will be. It matters what they expect. That's why we keep telling you to talk to them.If you don't ask the question, they could end up with an unreasonable expectation that will bite you in the butt the first time there's a crisis. Remember, that "3 times a year" could happen while you're on vacation, in the middle of the night, when you don't have cell phone access. If they expect you to respond in 15 minutes, you've just gotten yourself into trouble.
Ask now, set expectations with them now. Don't wait until the crisis occurs.
And as a DBA in a small shop, let me tell you that those 3 times a year problems tend to crop up more often then they're telling you. There are going to be other issues they'll be calling you about at all hours of the day / night because you are on call. And it gets old very fast. Especially when you're trying to have a life outside of work.
Hi Brandie, these are good questions. Well If its to much to bare, my old employees have told me their door is always open. I'll take the risk and hopefully its not as bad as it starting to sound :)..I will definitely get in contact with them regarding 24/7 support and whats expected of me.
October 18, 2012 at 9:25 am
GilaMonster (10/15/2012)
bugg (10/15/2012)
The company said i would be on call 24/7On call 24/7 on your own? That pretty much means no vacations, never out of touch, laptop with you anywhere, any time just in case.
When I worked for the bank it took a team of 8 DBAs to do a 24x7x365 rotation.
I'd question them on that point, carefully. What exactly do they expect, how quickly are you required to respond, how available are you required to be (and what are they paying for you being on call all the time)?
I've done the 24x7 oncall on my own. Even if they promise you the vacation and that so and so can cover that week - don't hold your breath.
It meant 70+hr weeks regularly (and 90 typically) and no vacations. Are you ready to work that much?
Even if it is just one database - that database must be mission critical - therefore your job is mission critical and it is your job to keep that database humming right along. How big is the database 6GB or is it 6TB? If it is large enough, what is the recovery plan for it and can anybody else at the shop recover quickly enough not to kill the business?
As the others have said, you have some digging to do with your new employer. You should get these types of questions answered before too long.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
October 18, 2012 at 9:48 am
SQLRNNR (10/18/2012)
GilaMonster (10/15/2012)
bugg (10/15/2012)
The company said i would be on call 24/7On call 24/7 on your own? That pretty much means no vacations, never out of touch, laptop with you anywhere, any time just in case.
When I worked for the bank it took a team of 8 DBAs to do a 24x7x365 rotation.
I'd question them on that point, carefully. What exactly do they expect, how quickly are you required to respond, how available are you required to be (and what are they paying for you being on call all the time)?
I've done the 24x7 oncall on my own. Even if they promise you the vacation and that so and so can cover that week - don't hold your breath.
It meant 70+hr weeks regularly (and 90 typically) and no vacations. Are you ready to work that much?
Even if it is just one database - that database must be mission critical - therefore your job is mission critical and it is your job to keep that database humming right along. How big is the database 6GB or is it 6TB? If it is large enough, what is the recovery plan for it and can anybody else at the shop recover quickly enough not to kill the business?
As the others have said, you have some digging to do with your new employer. You should get these types of questions answered before too long.
Okay, you guys are starting to scare the sh*te out of me :unsure: . Why are you DBA's willing to sacrifice so much of your "free" time, a 90 hour week ! Id leave in heartbeat after that, unless my palms were properly greased 😀
There is 1 database, so yes its mission critical this thing hums all year round.
Size of database: Don't know but will find out.
Backup/recovery plan: Principal Database is mirrored, as far as i know that's it!
on call 24/7 yes that's me. If i can't be contacted/reached they'll have to make a plan, end of, and when I'm on holiday I wont be reached especially where i normally take my holidays, backpacking through jungles or up some mountain.
They know I don't have any production DBA experience , and they don't have a DBA so they must be ticking along somehow without me.
Worst case scenario, its to hectic, I hand in my notice and leave.
October 18, 2012 at 10:16 am
bugg (10/18/2012)
There is 1 database, so yes its mission critical this thing hums all year round.
Mission critical as in 24/7/365, if the DB goes down for a few hours the company goes out of business?
Backup/recovery plan: Principal Database is mirrored, as far as i know that's it!
That's not a backup plan. That's high availability, nothing more.
on call 24/7 yes that's me. If i can't be contacted/reached they'll have to make a plan, end of, and when I'm on holiday I wont be reached especially where i normally take my holidays, backpacking through jungles or up some mountain.
On call for mission critical DBs generally means available at all time. You should establish (preferably before taking the job) what on-call means, what the required response time is and exactly what they are expecting in when you are on vacation, travelling, etc. Agreeing to be on call and not being available was a guaranteed way to get a trip to HR and a written warning the last place I worked
The couple times I was on-call for the bank (and they paid extra for on-call time, especially over Christmas/new year) I had to have laptop and cellphone on hand and could not be more than 1 hour travel away from the office.
They know I don't have any production DBA experience , and they don't have a DBA so they must be ticking along somehow without me.
That combination scares me. Someone with no DBA experience and no one to learn from and a mission critical DB....
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 18, 2012 at 10:32 am
As Grant Gus said earlier, you might have found the sweet-spot company where you can learn the trade and not actually get called a lot, despite being on 24/7 call. If you did, that's great. But setting expectations, both for you and for them, is a critical part of the DBA trade and key to making sure you won't regret taking the job (or make them regret hiring you for it).
As to why we do it? We enjoy it. I don't do it for the money (though I do expect to be well compensated for my time). If my only concern was the paycheck, this job would have sent me screaming to an asylum within the first year.
I like dealing with data, solving problems, and putting datasets together. Its rather enjoyable. And to top it off, I found a good place to ply the DBA trade in. The people on my team are fun, witty, and my social peers which makes the office grind / politics bearable. I have a boss who knows when to defend my position against attacks and when to call me on the carpet for it (this kind of boss is rare in my experience). I work for a company that values diversity, empowerment, teamwork and individual accountability.
I love my job because I rarely have to look at it like it's "work." I look forward to going into the office most mornings. Sometimes I get annoyed when I'm called up by a work while I'm trying to do something else, but when the problem is solved I feel a sense of satisfaction that I never got at my other jobs. That's why I'm a DBA.
October 19, 2012 at 5:18 am
buy a copy of DBA Survivor, its straight-forward, funny and practical for someone like yourself who is just getting started.
then, as Gail pointed out, you don't have anyonr to learn from. consider hiring in someone with experience to look over your shop and give you a plan to get you started. then you can be confident that you aren't missing something major due to ignorance.
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October 19, 2012 at 8:42 am
jcrawf02 (10/19/2012)
buy a copy of DBA Survivor, its straight-forward, funny and practical for someone like yourself who is just getting started.then, as Gail pointed out, you don't have anyone to learn from. consider hiring in someone with experience to look over your shop and give you a plan to get you started. then you can be confident that you aren't missing something major due to ignorance.
Great, just ordered it and also picked up a copy of Beginning Microsoft SQL Server 2008 Administration.
I have suggested we get a Consultant in to analyse the current setup , recommend any changes and provide a road map for the future. They were more than happy to this.
Thanks Again looking forward to the book 🙂
October 22, 2012 at 12:26 pm
First thing you must do when you start is ensure there is a Test Server\ laborator server. Start practising various recovery scenarios - and be fanatical about BACKUPS. I know they have mirroring - but a verifiable backup - is critical for your stress levels.
Read everything , and get knowledgable about some of the fundamentals, such as security, backups etc.
Document everything and monitor effectively
Jack Vamvas
sqlserver-dba.com
October 22, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Jack Vamvas (10/22/2012)
First thing you must do when you start is ensure there is a Test Server\ laborator server. Start practising various recovery scenarios - and be fanatical about BACKUPS. I know they have mirroring - but a verifiable backup - is critical for your stress levels.Read everything , and get knowledgable about some of the fundamentals, such as security, backups etc.
Document everything and monitor effectively
Can't agree more backup / restore routines may save your bum one day - I know they have saved mine.
Practise, practise, practise until you can do it in your sleep. One time you might do it for real when you are half asleep 😀
Read and remember (at my age I find the second half of that the hardest).
Keep coming here and other places like it - I must admit though I have found this the most helpful and friendliest one around.
My advice - if anything goes wrong, go and get a coffee - this gives you time to run through a couple of options first before you dive in and commit to any action of a server.
Good luck
-------------------------------Posting Data Etiquette - Jeff Moden [/url]Smart way to ask a question
There are naive questions, tedious questions, ill-phrased questions, questions put after inadequate self-criticism. But every question is a cry to understand (the world). There is no such thing as a dumb question. ― Carl Sagan
I would never join a club that would allow me as a member - Groucho Marx
October 22, 2012 at 8:37 pm
Stuart Davies (10/22/2012)
My advice - if anything goes wrong, go and get a coffee - this gives you time to run through a couple of options first before you dive in and commit to any action of a server.
+1. Best advice ever. Act... don't react.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 22, 2012 at 9:27 pm
bugg (10/18/2012)
Okay, you guys are starting to scare the sh*te out of me . Why are you DBA's willing to sacrifice so much of your "free" time, a 90 hour week ! Id leave in heartbeat after that, unless my palms were properly greased .
90 hour work weeks shouldn't be the norm for anyone and it's not just DBA's who put in such time.
In truth though, if you don't love the job then you're not going to like it (sounds obvious and stupid but is absolutely true). My personal opinion is that most DBAs are part of an elite group that understand that no matter what happens, the data must be protected and that they'll do just about anything, even at their own expense, to ensure that happens.
On the flip side of the coin, the rewards in personal satisfaction, notoriety, and pay can be incredible. It's one of those very rare jobs where it seems that the more you give, the more you receive. Although my normal week is 42 to 45 hours, I've done my fair share of very long extended weeks and a couple of 3 day straight jobs (72 hours in 3 days) and all of them have been incredible learning experiences (sometimes in learning that I'm working for the wrong company ;-)). For example, I voluntarily did a couple of all night death marches for my current company to help them move from one building to a new building. I'm a DBA but I helped them decable the equipment, pack it, move it, reassemble it, recable it, etc, etc. A week later, I came down with a horrible case of bronchitis. The company gave me time off with pay even though I hadn't been with the company long enough to accrue sick time or vacation time.
If you decide to do so, heavy participation on a forum like SQLServerCentral will bring you into the folds of a community of people like no other profession I've ever been privy to witness. By helping others, you will learn things that you can't learn anywhere else.
No... I'm not suggesting you give up all your family life for the job. I just want you to know that you really can reap what you sow in this fine community. Just meeting some of your peers (and online frieds from forums like this one) at a local PASS Chapter meeting, SQLSaturday, or the PASS summit brings an incredible joy in more ways that one. Never have I enjoyed more commradery.
On the other hand, if you think someone should grease your palm for any extended effort you might make, then this job is probably not for you. As Brandie so aptly stated in her post above, "If my only concern was the paycheck, this job would have sent me screaming to an asylum within the first year."
{Edit} p.s. If you learn how to do the job well, then you CAN take vacations and you CAN get a good night's sleep and you CAN work normal work weeks. 90 hour weeks should be the exception rather than the rule even if you're the "only one" in a small company who can "do it".
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 22, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Jeff Moden (10/22/2012)
bugg (10/18/2012)
Okay, you guys are starting to scare the sh*te out of me . Why are you DBA's willing to sacrifice so much of your "free" time, a 90 hour week ! Id leave in heartbeat after that, unless my palms were properly greased .90 hour work weeks shouldn't be the norm for anyone and it's not just DBA's who put in such time.
In truth though, if you don't love the job then you're not going to like it (sounds obvious and stupid but is absolutely true). My personal opinion is that most DBAs are part of an elite group that understand that no matter what happens, the data must be protected and that they'll do just about anything, even at their own expense, to ensure that happens.
On the flip side of the coin, the rewards in personal satisfaction, notoriety, and pay can be incredible. It's one of those very rare jobs where it seems that the more you give, the more you receive. Although my normal week is 42 to 45 hours, I've done my fair share of very long extended weeks and a couple of 3 day straight jobs (72 hours in 3 days) and all of them have been incredible learning experiences (sometimes in learning that I'm working for the wrong company ;-)). For example, I voluntarily did a couple of all night death marches for my current company to help them move from one building to a new building. I'm a DBA but I helped them decable the equipment, pack it, move it, reassemble it, recable it, etc, etc. A week later, I came down with a horrible case of bronchitis. The company gave me time off with pay even though I hadn't been with the company long enough to accrue sick time or vacation time.
If you decide to do so, heavy participation on a forum like SQLServerCentral will bring you into the folds of a community of people like no other profession I've ever been privy to witness. By helping others, you will learn things that you can't learn anywhere else.
No... I'm not suggesting you give up all your family life for the job. I just want you to know that you really can reap what you sow in this fine community. Just meeting some of your peers (and online frieds from forums like this one) at a local PASS Chapter meeting, SQLSaturday, or the PASS summit brings an incredible joy in more ways that one. Never have I enjoyed more commradery.
On the other hand, if you think someone should grease your palm for any extended effort you might make, then this job is probably not for you. As Brandie so aptly stated in her post above, "If my only concern was the paycheck, this job would have sent me screaming to an asylum within the first year."
{Edit} p.s. If you learn how to do the job well, then you CAN take vacations and you CAN get a good night's sleep and you CAN work normal work weeks. 90 hour weeks should be the exception rather than the rule even if you're the "only one" in a small company who can "do it".
So many fine points Jeff. I agree with many of them.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
October 23, 2012 at 4:28 am
+100 to Jeff's post.
October 24, 2012 at 5:03 pm
Wow! I agree with Jeff's post. I work for a company that started out small and has grown VERY rapidly over the last 6 years. I am currently a Systems Analyst for our vendor applications but work with SQL and our DBA team every day. This has given me first hand experience with coding and database structure. I also have been considering making the focus on DBA duties, so I found this thread quite interesting.
The hours mentioned are true but on fairly rare occasions. I have found that the DBAs at our company work fewer hours than 'we' do, but if we all do our jobs correctly, a fairly normal life can be led. That being said, typically ANY production support IT job will require the Football (laptop) and the CrackBerry. Just part of life. I think one of the most critical factors to dictate your quality of life will be the level of communication you have with the management. It is critical that they have an understanding that there will be COSTS associated with doing the job properly...both in money and cycle time. You may want to feel them out to see where their priorities/loyalties reside. If they are not tech savvy and are bent to the sales team (or some other external input), then you may have some tough times ahead. If they come from a tech background, you know your future pitches will not fall on deaf ears. Since you indicate that this is all fairly new to them, you may be able to set expectations now on a blank slate.
Just some thoughts seen through the lens of experience.
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