September 10, 2015 at 11:51 am
Jeff Moden (9/10/2015)
pietlinden (9/10/2015)
John,It's a recruiter, which makes me wonder, because the number of recruiters in this town that understand and can evaluate the "goodness" of T-SQL code is less than 5. In theory, he'll "pass it on" to whoever is doing the evaluating, but that sounds weird.
it just sounds odd that they can't say, "Given this scenario/database, write SQL to answer these questions or do these things. Explain why you picked that way instead of another." And perhaps more importantly, "explain how it works" (to prove it's yours).
Would a proper response be "Yep, it's definitely my code. I can tell by the warts and all. Might be ugly, but it's mine, and I can explain how and what it does, and why it does it that way."
Pieter
Ah. A recruiter. I agree that most recruiters don't even know what SQL stands for but I have seen a lot of companies ask their recruiters for such a thing to help filter posers and fakers from the real thing. Of course, that can be faked, as well, but 1) that won't help you explain the code and 2) the diligent company will Google for the code to see if something shows up there. For example, I had ran into one fellow that had removed all comments from and renamed a copy of DelimitedSplit8k and called it his own. While it is possible that he certainly could have come up with the same thing (although probably not letter for letter and space for space and name for name), he also couldn't explain it.
When you think about it, that's absolutely hilarious in one respect. The one being interviewed is trying to pass of the interviewer's published code as their own. I have this feeling that I would have some fun with that. When you consider that they couldn't explain it, it gets even better. Man the pork chop launcher and prepare for terminal velocity!
It does illustrate the very sad point that people steal code and try to pass it off as their own. I guess that will never end. :angry:
September 10, 2015 at 12:04 pm
Sometimes recruiters ask questions that seem weird, but are asked for a specific reason.
I know one recruiter that will ask a weird question during his first contact with a candidate if this contact is via telephone. When he meets this candidate in person, he'll ask the same question again. If the 2 answer are not the same, then he starts considering the possibility that the contact via telephone might have been with a different person posing as this candidate.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
September 10, 2015 at 2:21 pm
I have been asked if I could provide samples of some of my code during an interview, and I've seen it requested in a few job postings. My answer to those is simply that the code belongs my current or previous employer.
Now that I have been active on SSC for many years, I could probably just tell them to go search SSC for some of my code that I have provided to others seeking help to solve problems. As for me trying to find those code samples, not going to expend the effort unless I have a really good reason to look for something I wrote in the past.
September 10, 2015 at 9:26 pm
Alvin Ramard (9/10/2015)
Sometimes recruiters ask questions that seem weird, but are asked for a specific reason.I know one recruiter that will ask a weird question during his first contact with a candidate if this contact is via telephone. When he meets this candidate in person, he'll ask the same question again. If the 2 answer are not the same, then he starts considering the possibility that the contact via telephone might have been with a different person posing as this candidate.
Heh... damn... I thought that I was the only one that did stuff like that recruiter.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 10, 2015 at 10:00 pm
Maybe the recruiter is clueless, I don't know.
If a recruiter wanted to see some of my code without any explanation I would blow them off. I had some take home tests/projects but what you're describing sounds odd to me. There's plenty of other recruiters out there.
-- Itzik Ben-Gan 2001
September 11, 2015 at 2:22 am
pietlinden (9/10/2015)
John,It's a recruiter, which makes me wonder, because the number of recruiters in this town that understand and can evaluate the "goodness" of T-SQL code is less than 5. In theory, he'll "pass it on" to whoever is doing the evaluating, but that sounds weird.
it just sounds odd that they can't say, "Given this scenario/database, write SQL to answer these questions or do these things. Explain why you picked that way instead of another." And perhaps more importantly, "explain how it works" (to prove it's yours).
Would a proper response be "Yep, it's definitely my code. I can tell by the warts and all. Might be ugly, but it's mine, and I can explain how and what it does, and why it does it that way."
Pieter
Pieter
My point was more general than that. The only time a recruiter has the right to see examples of my work, or even my CV, is when he has a genuine job opportunity that I'm interested in applying for. Until that time, he's attempting to gather information on me that he doesn't need, and I simply refer him to my LinkedIn profile, where he can find most of the information that's in my CV.
John
September 11, 2015 at 5:36 am
If someone wants to see my code, they can grant me an interview and we'll talk about it then. Either I use something that's mine or they can present me a scenario and ask me to write code for it.
Otherwise, don't ask.
____________
Just my $0.02 from over here in the cheap seats of the peanut gallery - please adjust for inflation and/or your local currency.
September 11, 2015 at 5:53 am
I want to employ people who take pride in their code. The sort of rubbish formatting that is so often posted on the forums would be an immediate "no" at interview. Different Upper/Lower case for reserved words throughout the code, spacing in some places not in others, no consistent indentation ... all those things are signs, to me at least!, of someone who does not care about the code they write ... let alone using Defensive Coding Techniques to reduce bugs and/or make future maintenance easier
I would not want to pose a specific question "Please write some sample code to solve THIS problem" as that might cause it to be passed to, and answered by, someone else. A Forum perhaps?!! But I'd be happy that the candidate dreamt up a simple example problem and crafted some code to solve that (i.e to get around the intellectual property issue)
The specific "Please write some sample code to solve THIS problem" would be at interview ... so for me this is just about establishing candidates who can get to First Base and then inviting, only, them to interview
September 21, 2015 at 2:10 pm
John,
Good point. The hard part for me is the "can't get a job without experience, can't get experience without a job" conundrum.
I did write one not terribly complex database when I was doing my certification stuff (waste of time mostly, but it exposes the taker to lots of the nooks and crannies of SQL Server), but since what they were using the database for wasn't complicated, my database wasn't terribly complicated either.
Thanks for the responses, everybody. Definitely food for thought.
Pieter
September 21, 2015 at 2:37 pm
Honestly, if this recruiter is approaching you from some website like LinkedIn or Indeed, then I wouldn't even bother responding. You especially don't want to give them anything like source code or information that would be considered proprietary. They'll bundle your resume together with sample source code and spam it to 100 random employers. 99 of them will ignore it, and 1 that does take notice... will be your current employer.
The best place to find a recruiter, if applying for jobs directly doesn't seem to work, is at SQL Server user group meetings. Even if you have to drive 50 miles out of your way once a month, the networking opportunities are worth it, and the recruiters who show up there in person tend to be more solid and professional.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
September 21, 2015 at 2:48 pm
Eric,
I go to the user group meetings the vast majority of the time. Hard to argue with free training where you can ask questions. =)
Maybe my problem is that talent pool where I live is deep. We're stupid spoiled, because there are like 3 MVPs here in town (so we get good training!)
Pieter
September 21, 2015 at 5:53 pm
pietlinden (9/21/2015)
Eric,I go to the user group meetings the vast majority of the time. Hard to argue with free training where you can ask questions. =)
Maybe my problem is that talent pool where I live is deep. We're stupid spoiled, because there are like 3 MVPs here in town (so we get good training!)
Pieter
Umm...
Just remember that the MVP program is an evangelistic reward for people that do things that promote Microsoft products. It does NOT mean that they know what they are talking about... and they frequently don't.
Now an MCM on the other hand has had to pass some very tough tests to obtain that certification. You should really listen to any of those... but they are kinda scarce.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
September 22, 2015 at 7:08 am
WayneS (9/21/2015)
pietlinden (9/21/2015)
Eric,I go to the user group meetings the vast majority of the time. Hard to argue with free training where you can ask questions. =)
Maybe my problem is that talent pool where I live is deep. We're stupid spoiled, because there are like 3 MVPs here in town (so we get good training!)
Pieter
Umm...
Just remember that the MVP program is an evangelistic reward for people that do things that promote Microsoft products. It does NOT mean that they know what they are talking about... and they frequently don't.
Now an MCM on the other hand has had to pass some very tough tests to obtain that certification. You should really listen to any of those... but they are kinda scarce.
Yes, MCMs are like limited edition Beanie Babies, Microsoft minted only a few of those cuties back several years ago and then broke the mold. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the MCM exams only covered SQL Server 2008, and versions 2012, 2014, and 2016 have since been released or in CTP, so someone sitting on a vintage MCM may still be behind when it comes to more recently introduced features like Always On, ColumnStore, and Heckaton.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
September 22, 2015 at 7:36 am
WayneS (9/21/2015)
pietlinden (9/21/2015)
Eric,I go to the user group meetings the vast majority of the time. Hard to argue with free training where you can ask questions. =)
Maybe my problem is that talent pool where I live is deep. We're stupid spoiled, because there are like 3 MVPs here in town (so we get good training!)
Pieter
Umm...
Just remember that the MVP program is an evangelistic reward for people that do things that promote Microsoft products. It does NOT mean that they know what they are talking about... and they frequently don't.
Now an MCM on the other hand has had to pass some very tough tests to obtain that certification. You should really listen to any of those... but they are kinda scarce.
Hmmm, I know plenty of MVPs who aren't just "promoting Microsoft products". They are actively contributing to the community and even talking about the shortcomings of the product (remember Brent Ozar vs Standard Edition of SQL Server?). I wouldn't consider them just part of the marketing team. And a lot of MVPs (especially on this site) do know what they talk about. Unfortunately there are others out there...
Need an answer? No, you need a question
My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP
September 22, 2015 at 8:23 am
Koen Verbeeck (9/22/2015)
WayneS (9/21/2015)
pietlinden (9/21/2015)
Eric,I go to the user group meetings the vast majority of the time. Hard to argue with free training where you can ask questions. =)
Maybe my problem is that talent pool where I live is deep. We're stupid spoiled, because there are like 3 MVPs here in town (so we get good training!)
Pieter
Umm...
Just remember that the MVP program is an evangelistic reward for people that do things that promote Microsoft products. It does NOT mean that they know what they are talking about... and they frequently don't.
Now an MCM on the other hand has had to pass some very tough tests to obtain that certification. You should really listen to any of those... but they are kinda scarce.
Hmmm, I know plenty of MVPs who aren't just "promoting Microsoft products". They are actively contributing to the community and even talking about the shortcomings of the product (remember Brent Ozar vs Standard Edition of SQL Server?). I wouldn't consider them just part of the marketing team. And a lot of MVPs (especially on this site) do know what they talk about. Unfortunately there are others out there...
The SQL Server MVPs may not be the norm. I haven't had any opportunities to interact with MVPs in other areas so I have nothing to really judge them against.
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