June 20, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Rules, Defaults and the SQL Standard
June 20, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I would really, really like to get my hands on the SQL Standards committee... they all need to be taken out for a porkchop dinner, Jeff Moden style... 😀
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 20, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Tony, Jeff, why don't you just join the committee? I don't think that its as hard as all that.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
June 20, 2008 at 11:58 pm
If I could find out how, I would in an instant. Anyone have a clue on how to get on that committee?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 21, 2008 at 6:55 am
Jeff Moden (6/20/2008)
If I could find out how, I would in an instant. Anyone have a clue on how to get on that committee?
Yeah, I researched it some time ago. I forget the details right now, but I will look them up and get back to you. I do recall that it involves some substantial $$$, though a lot less than I expected...
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
June 21, 2008 at 9:49 am
SQL Apprentice Jeff...has a nice ring to it. Maybe we can chip in for a pointy hat for you to wear to the meetings 😉
June 21, 2008 at 10:27 am
Ok, this is all rather complicated, and I am not sure that I have it completely figured out, so anybody who knows better, please correct me:
First, here is a good overview site to start from:
From this (and other places) I understand that the ISO SQL efforts are handled by ANSI in the US.
ANSI's IT standards are handled by a TAG (Technical Advisory Group) called INCITS (InterNational Committee for Information Technology Standards), and although it says "international" is primarily US-based. Their site is here:
This is probably the central site that you will want to use in pursuing membership.
inicits supports a number of TC's (Technical Committees), including "H2 Database", the one that handles SQL. To find out more about this committee and their work, go to their page here:
In particular, you may want to look at their meeting schedule to get an idea of what you could be getting yourself into. (this site appears to be out of date and moribund at this time)
The procedures of membership in incits and its TC's as explained at this page:[ur]lhttp://www.incits.org/membership/membership.html[/url] is summarized below:
[font="Times New Roman"]
Which organizations can be members?
* Voting membership is open to organizations directly and materially affected by this work and are willing to participate regularly and pay the designated service fee.
* In order to be in the voting member category, consultant organizations shall have to declare that their participation is not being funded by any organization already having voting membership.
* Organizations which are not domiciled in the U.S. can become members of the technical committee, but when the TC is dealing with questions establishing the U.S. position on an international matter, participation and /or voting is limited to representatives of U.S. domiciled organizations.
* An organization with voting membership shall appoint one and only one principal representative and may appoint one or more alternate representatives.
How does an organization become a member?
* A representative of a prospective voting member shall attend at least one meeting of the TC, TG, or SG. A representative shall attend the first of these meetings as an observer and reaffirm interest in the work of the TC, TG, or SG.
* Membership becomes effective with attendance at one of the next two successive meetings and receipt by the Secretariat of applicable fees for the membership year, at which time voting privileges begin. (Advisory members have no voting privileges, but may participate in the business of the meeting. Attendance at ad hoc meetings does not count towards membership.)
* A letter of application on company letterhead should then be given to the Chairman. (The name, mailing address, phone number, and e-mail address should be included for each person.)
* The Chairman will forward the application to the INCITS Secretariat who handles billings.[/font]
So apparently the way that you become a voting member is:
1) have your "Organization" (invididuals can register as an organization) register as a member and pay the fees.
2) have your Organization designate you as their primary representative to the TC,
3) attend one meeting as an Observer,
4) then attend one of the next two meetings.
Many of their meetings are "electronic", so I do not think that physical attendance is necessarily a requirement.
Membership Fees to join INCITS are explained here:http://www.incits.org/membership/meminfo.htm. However, they are quite steep. You can also, just join the TC, which is $1200/year. If you want to join one of your committee's TG's (Task Groups), that is an additional $400/year.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
June 21, 2008 at 10:57 am
I want to add that IMHO, the reason that the work of ths ANSI SQL has seemed so out of step with users and practioners for the last 15 years has been that representation on the committee has been unbalanced in favor of vendors and to a lesser extent, academics. The representation by actual people whose principle concern is the everyday use and practice of SQL has been very light.
The only way to fix that is with more balanced representation and the only way to fix that is for more users and practioner's to participate on the technical committee. For just $1200/year you would get the same vote that Microsoft, IBM or Oracle gets (OK, $1200 plus a lot of your personal time and some potenially hefty travel expenses). And Jeff, I think that you would make an excellent representative for the users of SQL, and there are a couple of other folks on this site whom I think could do a bang-up job as well (I'm looking at you Steve, Brian, Matt, Gail and Gus).
And with a little luck, you might even be able to get your employer to be your sponsoring organization and actually cover your fees, time and travel expenses. 🙂
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
June 21, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (6/21/2008)
SQL Apprentice Jeff...has a nice ring to it. Maybe we can chip in for a pointy hat for you to wear to the meetings 😉
Heh... you guys save your money to buy something to cook all the porkchops that are going to come flying your way 😛
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 21, 2008 at 12:50 pm
rbarryyoung (6/21/2008)
I want to add that IMHO, the reason that the work of ths ANSI SQL has seemed so out of step with users and practioners for the last 15 years has been that representation on the committee has been unbalanced in favor of vendors and to a lesser extent, academics. The representation by actual people whose principle concern is the everyday use and practice of SQL has been very light.The only way to fix that is with more balanced representation and the only way to fix that is for more users and practioner's to participate on the technical committee. For just $1200/year you would get the same vote that Microsoft, IBM or Oracle gets (OK, $1200 plus a lot of your personal time and some potenially hefty travel expenses). And Jeff, I think that you would make an excellent representative for the users of SQL, and there are a couple of other folks on this site whom I think could do a bang-up job as well (I'm looking at you Steve, Brian, Matt, Gail and Gus).
And with a little luck, you might even be able to get your employer to be your sponsoring organization and actually cover your fees, time and travel expenses. 🙂
Wow... thanks for the hard work finding all that stuff, Barry...
ANSI? I suppose that would be OK... What I really want to do is get on whatever God-forsaken Microsoft Board there is on SQL... They've got some really good ideas and some really bad ones... I want to try to help them realize how bad the bad ones are gonna hurt.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 21, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Jeff Moden (6/21/2008)
Steve Jones - Editor (6/21/2008)
SQL Apprentice Jeff...has a nice ring to it. Maybe we can chip in for a pointy hat for you to wear to the meetings 😉Heh... you guys save your money to buy something to cook all the porkchops that are going to come flying your way. 😛
Besides... I'm way ahead of you... don't need the pointy hat when you're wearing a lead cods-piece 😀
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 22, 2008 at 3:42 am
I don't see much of a future for cursors if you get on the committee, Jeff. Additionally, I'd kick out XQuery in favour of an extension to SQL for querying XML documents. It makes for really messy code to have to combine the two in one procedure.
I agree with Tony's idea of a 'Community SQL' standard which would adopt a similar 'modus operandi' to W3C. C'mon, all of you, let's do it!
Best wishes,
Phil Factor
June 22, 2008 at 8:54 am
Even though I don't like cursors and I don't use them, that would be the first thing to change... I'd have them stop deprecating stuff that works. That's part of why Oracle has been so suck-sessful... most old code still works on newer revs without any modification.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 22, 2008 at 9:18 am
The nice thing is that deprecated features last for a couple versions. DTS was announced as deprecation in 2005, it's stil there in 2008.
I'm not sure why features get deprecated. I'm guessing it's a try to force people to move forward in the development as well as remove the need to code support in future versions. I'm OK with removing features over 2 or 3 versions, but what I'd like to see a couple more years of support for each version, perhaps 7 years, so that a company can really get value for their investment.
June 22, 2008 at 10:20 am
...but what I'd like to see a couple more years of support for each version, perhaps 7 years, so that a company can really get value for their investment.
Steve this is the Microsoft view by limiting the time of support, Microsoft is attempting to maximize their (Microsofts) return on their (Microsofts) investment in developing the new versions. IMHO an analysis to determine the maximum rate of return for Microsoft would be quite complex since it would include reducing staff, slowing down development, etc. As Microsoft seems to be reaping a huge cash flow and a substantial ROI they may have already stumbled on the ideal business plan for themselves and others.
Imagine the number of new computers purchased, older machines modified by adding additional memory for Vista -- the Dells, Compacts, and HPs of the world also profit.
So it is up to each user to measure their own ROI when deciding to upgrade to a newer version of any system. Perhaps users should decide to stick with what works (If it is not broke for what you need, do not fix it), use new versions for new applications ONLY if an older version will not do what is needed is the path to follow.
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