September 4, 2012 at 9:14 am
Aaron N. Cutshall (9/4/2012)
Eric M Russell (9/4/2012)
A lot of guys at conventions tend to get drunk or for whatever reason feel free to let themselves go and behave in ways that they ordinarily wouldn't at the office.I believe that serving alcohol at such conventions (or even office parties) is a really bad idea. People's behavior appears to change due to alcohol because it releases their inhibitions and self-control allowing their inner demons free reign for awhile. When a person is drunk you get a more complete picture of who they really are inside without their sober mind keeping guard. Social settings only compound the issue especially when folks have to face the consequences the next day.
However this doesn't change the fact that people will socialize with alcohol, organized or not.
If you're visiting a convention and go social afterwards, is it fair to assume that women (or men) want to do more than talk shop? I'd argue that's a poor assumption to make and other parties deserve the benefit of the doubt that they are there professionally.
September 4, 2012 at 9:28 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/4/2012)
Aaron N. Cutshall (9/4/2012)
Eric M Russell (9/4/2012)
A lot of guys at conventions tend to get drunk or for whatever reason feel free to let themselves go and behave in ways that they ordinarily wouldn't at the office.I believe that serving alcohol at such conventions (or even office parties) is a really bad idea. People's behavior appears to change due to alcohol because it releases their inhibitions and self-control allowing their inner demons free reign for awhile. When a person is drunk you get a more complete picture of who they really are inside without their sober mind keeping guard. Social settings only compound the issue especially when folks have to face the consequences the next day.
However this doesn't change the fact that people will socialize with alcohol, organized or not.
If you're visiting a convention and go social afterwards, is it fair to assume that women (or men) want to do more than talk shop? I'd argue that's a poor assumption to make and other parties deserve the benefit of the doubt that they are there professionally.
I've never been to a DefCon, so I don't know if it's analogous to TechEd. At TechEd, they pass out coffee on the convention floor, not beer and mixed drinks. I can't imagine sitting through a two hour seminar on query plan optimization with a beer buzz. However, from what I've read, it seems that DefCon is more of a party atmosphere. It's probably a different crowd.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
September 4, 2012 at 9:29 am
chrisn-585491 (9/4/2012)
I've not seen this behavior at the SQL Server events I've gone to
I have. No where near as bad, and only twice out of many conferences, but...
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
September 4, 2012 at 9:36 am
Eric M Russell (9/4/2012)
At TechEd, they pass out coffee on the convention floor, not beer and mixed drinks. I can't imagine sitting through a two hour seminar on query plan optimization with a beer buzz. However, from what I've read, it seems that DefCon is more of a party atmosphere. It's probably a different crowd.
At TechEd in the evening, usually the first major night, dinner is on the expo floor, with alcohol. Same at the PASS Summit.
September 4, 2012 at 9:52 am
I think any conference situation where there is a lot of consumption of alcohol, especially by young men, is likely to lead to this sort of behavior.
This is probably why it may be less common at SQL Server conferences; DBAs tend to be older (30+) and there is probably less alcohol.
None of that excuses this sort of bad behavior, but I doubt anything will ever eliminate it. However, some of the items mentioned would go a long way towards eliminating it as the norm, especially condemnation by peers.
The discussion on the unrelated link below has an especially good point:
"...14. Take away alcohol and stupid, and the world would require about 90% fewer cops..."
September 4, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (9/4/2012)
I think any conference situation where there is a lot of consumption of alcohol, especially by young men, is likely to lead to this sort of behavior.This is probably why it may be less common at SQL Server conferences; DBAs tend to be older (30+) and there is probably less alcohol.
None of that excuses this sort of bad behavior, but I doubt anything will ever eliminate it. However, some of the items mentioned would go a long way towards eliminating it as the norm, especially condemnation by peers.
The discussion on the unrelated link below has an especially good point:
"...14. Take away alcohol and stupid, and the world would require about 90% fewer cops..."
Exactly Michael, as long as alcohol is served at these kinds of events there will be people that can't handle their alcohol and end up acting like this, and in some cases it only took 3 beers.. This is exactly why I do not attend company Christmas parties for the exact same reason. I have personally seen some unbelievable behavior at company Christmas parties in the past and alcohol is almost always the cause of it, and it isn't always men either.. And condemning the people's behavior that year has not prevented it from occuring again the next year either. The only way that has been accomplished is to ban the individuals from the future event if alcohol is going to be served. But even then, somebody else imbibes and acts like this the next year. So what are you going to do G.I? Some people just can't handle their alcohol, and that is just a fact of life. Banning alcohol is not necessarily the answer either, because people can just tank up before they come. Not attending the event in the first place is the only way IMHO. Alcohol is an amplifier, and most everyone knows that already, so none of this should come as a big surprise to anyone. Alcohol gives you infinite patience for stupidity...:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
September 5, 2012 at 12:02 am
call.copse (9/4/2012)
mtucker-732014 (9/3/2012)
I dont need to have been to Defcon to write about an article that someone has written. My evidence is Valerie's article, which as you can see if you read it, contains only references to things that might have happened to unnamed people which she heard about second hand.I have to agree with MissTipps here - do you really need gory details? I might question your own motives for prurience if that is the case. I am only semi-acquainted with hacker culture from some of my further flung peeps but I can certainly believe in a 'constant barrage of sexual insults' from what I do understand - it is clearly more testosterone fuelled and willy waving than corporate IT, which can have such undertones.
Anyhow if you did bother to read Valerie's post she is certainly not bad mouthing the whole thing AFAICS, just worn down by a 'sexist atmosphere' and I think she is far more credible than you are coming across.
Do I need the gory details? No. Valerie did describe some gory details of what she heard happened to someone else, her article was not lacking in detail in that respect and that was not my criticism.
What I found strange was that only factual statement that Valerie made concerning a bad experience that happened to her was that someone stole her joke.
Of course I ought to know better since everything posted on blogs is true
September 5, 2012 at 12:35 am
mtucker-732014 (9/5/2012)
Do I need the gory details? No. Valerie did describe some gory details of what she heard happened to someone else, her article was not lacking in detail in that respect and that was not my criticism.What I found strange was that only factual statement that Valerie made concerning a bad experience that happened to her was that someone stole her joke.
Of course I ought to know better since everything posted on blogs is true
And, still, I'm missing your point!
September 5, 2012 at 7:24 am
@MTucker
Valerie isn't just quoting third party articles. She specifically states she couldn't put up with a constant barrage of sexual insults. That's first hand. The story about someone's crotch being grabbed comes from a friend of hers - hardly a case of reading a faceless blog and assuming it was gospel. No, what Valerie wrote was convincing as a balanced collection of bad experiences for her and others around her, and the veracity seems pretty well vouchsafed by the consistency of agreement in the subsequent comments. It's a real problem, and you seem pretty set on ignoring the evidence in order to try to nit-pick. Why? In fact, let's forget Valerie's article, because discussing the article isn't the same as discussing the problem. Instead, let's focus on the fact that sexual harassment exists in various situations and ask the simple question; do you condone or condemn sexual harassment?
@various
I disagree that alcohol is to blame. Alcohol is just an inanimate substance, so can't do anything on its own. Misuse of alcohol may be the cause, but in that case each drinker has the responsibility to remain socially and legally acceptable. If they misuse the alcohol, it's not the alcohol's fault; it's the person's. I do agree that any event that provides alcohol - in this case as a social lubricant - also has an obligation to make sure everyone lives up to their responsibilities, but either way it comes back to a problem of social acceptability; either someone thinking it's OK to insult women, bystanders thinking it's OK to let someone abuse women or event organisers thinking it's OK not to enforce minimum standards of behaviour.
One of the points Valerie tries to make is why it is important that women attend, and I was dismayed. If anyone wants to (and is eligible to) attend an event, it is important that they should be able to. Gender, race, religion, age and so on are irrelevant, and as soon as you have to start saying why it's important one group shouldn't be disadvantaged, it implies it may be acceptable for other groups to be disadvantaged. It's not Valerie at fault, of course - she's right to highlight this - but once again, it says a lot about the wider prevailing attitude, and that saddens me greatly.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
September 5, 2012 at 8:01 am
but either way it comes back to a problem of social acceptability; either someone thinking it's OK to insult women, bystanders thinking it's OK to let someone abuse women or event organisers thinking it's OK not to enforce minimum standards of behaviour.
What you are not understanding is that when people start or see people drinking at these events that gives them infinite patience for stupidity, like I said. That is why people can just stand around and do nothing when stuff like this happens. "Oh, they are just blowing off a little steam", they excuse it because of the alcohol. It clouds peoples judgement, even if they have had only one drink at times. You can't just say it is not a big factor, because it is... This is not the first time alcohol has played a role in things like this. I refer you to the 1991 Tailhook Scandal at the Las Vegas Hilton where over 80 female naval officers were sexually assaulted. According to a Department of Defense report, 83 women and seven men stated that they had been victims of sexual assault and harassment during the meeting. Several participants later stated that a number of flag officers attending the meetings were aware of the sexual assaults, but did nothing to stop them. According to several witnesses alcohol was a primary factor. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
September 5, 2012 at 9:21 am
TravisDBA (9/5/2012)
but either way it comes back to a problem of social acceptability; either someone thinking it's OK to insult women, bystanders thinking it's OK to let someone abuse women or event organisers thinking it's OK not to enforce minimum standards of behaviour.
What you are not understanding is that when people start or see people drinking at these events that gives them infinite patience for stupidity, like I said. That is why people can just stand around and do nothing when stuff like this happens. "Oh, they are just blowing off a little steam", they excuse it because of the alcohol. It clouds peoples judgement, even if they have had only one drink at times. You can't just say it is not a big factor, because it is... This is not the first time alcohol has played a role in things like this. I refer you to the 1991 Tailhook Scandal at the Las Vegas Hilton where over 80 female naval officers were sexually assaulted. According to a Department of Defense report, 83 women and seven men stated that they had been victims of sexual assault and harassment during the meeting. Several participants later stated that a number of flag officers attending the meetings were aware of the sexual assaults, but did nothing to stop them. According to several witnesses alcohol was a primary factor. 😀
Oh, I'm understanding the point all right. However, my point is that we shouldn't blame the alcohol; we should blame the people who drink it and misbehave, and we should blame those around who think they should make allowances because someone's drunk. If we blame the alcohol, we're de facto removing the blame from the people, and no-one's holding a gun against their heads forcing them to drink.
In practice, yes of course we need to be cautious about providing alcohol at certain events. However, this is not because alcohol is inherently bad, but because too many people can't be trusted to take responsibility for their actions. Nor is this solely related to alcohol. Road rage, to give another example, isn't a phenomenon; it's simply a means for people to explain why not showing basic restraint wasn't really their fault.
"It wasn't my fault, it was the beer talking."
"It wasn't my fault, it was the way I was brought up as a child."
"It wasn't my fault, they shouldn't have put temptation in front of me."
"It wasn't my fault, (s)he made me do it."
We all have the power to choose our actions. Why should we give people a get-out clause by blaming the thing rather than the chooser?
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
September 5, 2012 at 9:25 am
majorbloodnock (9/5/2012)
TravisDBA (9/5/2012)
but either way it comes back to a problem of social acceptability; either someone thinking it's OK to insult women, bystanders thinking it's OK to let someone abuse women or event organisers thinking it's OK not to enforce minimum standards of behaviour.
What you are not understanding is that when people start or see people drinking at these events that gives them infinite patience for stupidity, like I said. That is why people can just stand around and do nothing when stuff like this happens. "Oh, they are just blowing off a little steam", they excuse it because of the alcohol. It clouds peoples judgement, even if they have had only one drink at times. You can't just say it is not a big factor, because it is... This is not the first time alcohol has played a role in things like this. I refer you to the 1991 Tailhook Scandal at the Las Vegas Hilton where over 80 female naval officers were sexually assaulted. According to a Department of Defense report, 83 women and seven men stated that they had been victims of sexual assault and harassment during the meeting. Several participants later stated that a number of flag officers attending the meetings were aware of the sexual assaults, but did nothing to stop them. According to several witnesses alcohol was a primary factor. 😀
Oh, I'm understanding the point all right. However, my point is that we shouldn't blame the alcohol; we should blame the people who drink it and misbehave, and we should blame those around who think they should make allowances because someone's drunk. If we blame the alcohol, we're de facto removing the blame from the people, and no-one's holding a gun against their heads forcing them to drink.
In practice, yes of course we need to be cautious about providing alcohol at certain events. However, this is not because alcohol is inherently bad, but because too many people can't be trusted to take responsibility for their actions. Nor is this solely related to alcohol. Road rage, to give another example, isn't a phenomenon; it's simply a means for people to explain why not showing basic restraint wasn't really their fault.
"It wasn't my fault, it was the beer talking."
"It wasn't my fault, it was the way I was brought up as a child."
"It wasn't my fault, they shouldn't have put temptation in front of me."
"It wasn't my fault, (s)he made me do it."
We all have the power to choose our actions. Why should we give people a get-out clause by blaming the thing rather than the chooser?
I heartly agree with majorbloodnock.
September 5, 2012 at 9:39 am
Funny that people don't tend look at firearms that same way today though do they now? Guns don't kill people, people kill people.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
September 5, 2012 at 9:44 am
TravisDBA (9/5/2012)
Funny that people don't look at firearms that way today though do they? Guns don't kill people, people kill people.:-D
Maybe not everyone. The true definition of gun control: Being able to hit what you aim at.
September 5, 2012 at 9:46 am
TravisDBA (9/5/2012)
Funny that people don't look at firearms that way today though do they? Guns don't kill people, people kill people.:-D
Well, there's a question. I know there is a big difference between the UK and the US in perception of firearms, and as a Brit I can only really comment on attitudes over this side of the pond. However, you're right; no matter how a society views guns, it takes a person's finger to pull the trigger. If someone shows such a lack of restraint as to use a gun against someone else, they are quickly reacquainted with their responsibilities and to the due process of the law.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
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