December 2, 2015 at 2:52 pm
I had the same exact experience. Worked for company for 9 years, and never had training on new technology because the department did not want to upgrade to newer technology. Now I have to play catch up after the department I was in was eliminated in a merger and staff laid off. Just like you said. Work 8 + hours a day, so need break from computer at home.
Companies need to train people while at work or have projects that let them learn. IF you are in the right company this happens. I almost had that when a friend still at the company asked me to work on 6 month .NET site project without experience there. Got some experience with it and did my own training on the side so will see how it goes with that. But hard to keep up with the latest tech as I have to take jobs that pay the bills and they are not often the latest tech.
December 2, 2015 at 3:11 pm
When I post a resume on a job listing web site, I get emails and calls from recruiters nine out of ten times. Rarely does an employer contact me directly. And recruiters only contact you for some job they know about now. Recruiting agencies should start to pay people to learn new technology under contract, so they get a percentage of the salary. I have come across one company that does this, but do not know their success rate.
Except for networking, if an employer is relying on recruiters only to fill positions, then that is a problem. Most recruiters are not proactive in getting the job filled except for sending a resume over. I asked a recruiter once what they did to just secure an interview and they said nothing. For the company they were dealing with, it was just a lottery of submitting a resume to an HR database. They had no personal contacts.
The system is not perfect, so there is room for improvement.
December 2, 2015 at 3:33 pm
jeffrey yao (12/2/2015)
Iwas Bornready (12/2/2015)
ian.lee 73912 (12/2/2015)
Negative thinking senior manager: "What if we invest in training and developing our people and they leave us?"Positive thinking senior manager: "What if we don't and they stay?"
Funny but true. I have to remember this.
Actually for those who stay yet under-perform, it is relatively easier to get rid of than to keep those who out-perform (because the company cannot match other competitors in compensation or promotion.)
On the other hand, I do believe it is more individual's responsibility to invest on one's OWN skills. However, I do know in early days, some companies will invest on employees (like paying for one's MBA total tuition) but the employee needs to serve for the company at least X years. Otherwise, the company will be reimbursed for the total investment cost.
I will agree that we should devote some of our free time to learning and advancing our skill sets. However, I also believe that companies should also invest in their employees. At one employer I was able to get additional paid training because I did do things outside of work to enhance my own skills. The employer knew that they would get something back in return for the their investment in me. Another individual in my group found it difficult to get paid training as he did nothing to help build and enhance his skills. He expected the company to pay for all his training.
December 3, 2015 at 4:26 am
Lynn Pettis (12/2/2015)
...At one employer I was able to get additional paid training because I did do things outside of work to enhance my own skills. The employer knew that they would get something back in return for the their investment in me. Another individual in my group found it difficult to get paid training as he did nothing to help build and enhance his skills. He expected the company to pay for all his training.
People will help those that help themselves. It's human nature.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 3, 2015 at 8:13 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/2/2015)
Rod at work (12/2/2015)
Oh Steve, man have you said a lot here that I'd like to respond to. But I think prudence forebears me from saying everything I'd like to. Generally speaking I've worked for different companies over the years which gave no importance to training their staff. Their software systems suffered for it, but either they were happy with that or ignorant of the effect their refusal to train anyone causes.But I appreciate your bringing up the responsibility of the employee, too. We've got to do whatever we can to train ourselves.
I'd best stop right there. Good article, thank you Steve.
Cheers, Rod.
See the two line quote above. I'd make sure my manager, and upper management, saw that.
I really wish I had good references/stories published on where a good developer makes money for the company and bad developers cost money. Too many legal implications for anyone to truly disclose much of this data.
Thank you, Steve.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
December 3, 2015 at 11:13 am
aggiekev02 (12/2/2015)
Steve, you touched a lot of topics that irk me. Because all those points are right.Worked for a company for 8 years that never did anything but provide lip service for continuing education.
Throw in 40-60 hr weeks that left you burnt on being at a computer. Making it extremely difficult to find time outside work to learn new tech.
The boss had an opinion that he didn't want to send developers to conferences and training to keep them from networking. During which they might realize how crappy the work place was.
Now here I am, having done a lot of interviews, while doing contractor work and what am I finding? That 7 out of 10 questions on technology I am asked are of things I don't know. I keep a list of them now, and every time I get a spare hour not focused on a client. I pull an item off that list and learn it. Due to that I aced a tech screening recently. I think because i can debate the merits of EF6 versus Linq to SQL. Still waiting on a real interview though.
Till then, I am a back end .net senior developer who knows a ton of stuff about sql server that I learned the hard way. Open for freelance and consulting jobs.
WOW, I hear ya, bro!!
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
December 3, 2015 at 11:17 am
markedconn (12/2/2015)
Agree 100%. To many job descriptions are written by HR. I have seen some that look like they were pulled off of some generic web page list as the descriptions make no sense many times. The classic do you have 5 years experience in something that has only been out for a few years.One of the problems is the job description is written by someone that can not write well. They should be saying we need someone with 5 years of experience building databases in xyz platform. More current version preferred, but not required as we know you can pick up the latest technology.
Yeah, I know what you mean. You can tell when someone in HR has written a job description who doesn't have any technical experience. "Required: Someone with e to 5 years of experience with SEEQUAL."
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
December 3, 2015 at 1:29 pm
Rod at work (12/3/2015)
markedconn (12/2/2015)
Agree 100%. To many job descriptions are written by HR. I have seen some that look like they were pulled off of some generic web page list as the descriptions make no sense many times. The classic do you have 5 years experience in something that has only been out for a few years.One of the problems is the job description is written by someone that can not write well. They should be saying we need someone with 5 years of experience building databases in xyz platform. More current version preferred, but not required as we know you can pick up the latest technology.
Yeah, I know what you mean. You can tell when someone in HR has written a job description who doesn't have any technical experience. "Required: Someone with e to 5 years of experience with SEEQUAL."
That's a whole lot better than these...
"Required: At least 5 years experience with SQL Server 2016"
"Required: Strong performance tuning experience with SQL Server 2013"
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
December 3, 2015 at 3:01 pm
Lynn Pettis (12/2/2015)
Another individual in my group found it difficult to get paid training as he did nothing to help build and enhance his skills. He expected the company to pay for all his training.
That, right there, is a huge, huge problem. People who feel entitled to do nothing except work 9:00 to 5:00, talk about the weekend for 2 of those hours and do nothing to get any better at what they do unless the company pays for everything is an epidemic. Going to a training session for $2000 on your own dime is one thing, but reading is a lot different.
December 3, 2015 at 3:02 pm
Jeff Moden (12/3/2015)
"Required: At least 5 years experience with SQL Server 2016""Required: Strong performance tuning experience with SQL Server 2013"
I've seen something like that before. I literally saw a requirement for 10 years experience with SQL 2005 and it was only 2009.
December 3, 2015 at 10:18 pm
Ed Wagner (12/3/2015)
Jeff Moden (12/3/2015)
"Required: At least 5 years experience with SQL Server 2016""Required: Strong performance tuning experience with SQL Server 2013"
I've seen something like that before. I literally saw a requirement for 10 years experience with SQL 2005 and it was only 2009.
Heh... I didn't make those up. Those are quotes. :sick: It would appear that DBAs aren't the only ones that can't get the current date and time. 😛
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
December 7, 2015 at 5:42 pm
Interviews, like tests, dont measure what you know, just what you dont know. When the criteria becomes harder, more difficult questions, the more likely you are to pass up a good candidate. As mentioned before, I have seen little to no emphasis on ability to learn. One great question to ask is "what do you do to better your skills?" A "I like reading on my own" is a great indicator of a passionate candidate that may not have been lucky enough to learn hands on through past projects. I think the hiring managers are as risk averse and bad at picking candidates as they are at picking stocks 🙂
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December 7, 2015 at 6:19 pm
Agree. I have never worked on a project where I knew everything from the start. You need a good foundation, but to assume that you know everything known to computer science is unrealistic. It is better to find out what the person did in past projects, what problems did they encounter and how did they handle it.
Recently I did a database and VB project where the prior database programmer left because that person was not familiar enough with VB to finish the project. In that case the person could have learned new skills to finish the project if given the leeway. If the client does not want to pay for a learning curve, then that is a problem. When I started the project, I had to learn what was going on and then solve the remaining tasks. I did not know 100% of everything, but what I needed to learn was available over the internet. Good managers and hiring people recognize that IT is knowing and learning. It is just a fine line how much learning the boss will tolerate.
Academics spend most of their time knowing everything and coming up with useful and not so useful ideas and theories. Business people need to use the those ideas cost effectively, but keep up with trends if needed. Sometimes I question the need to keep up with trends if they do not do anything for the bottom line.
December 7, 2015 at 6:30 pm
Good points there. Consider asking a deep programming question that you have solved before, but doesn't happen everyday. You probably would not remember right there on the spot exactly how to write it out to the interviewer in two minutes (even though you know it is not beyond you to solve this).The questions tend to focus on memorizing since that is easier for the hiring manager than to try to gauge how well you can problem solve. I would not do conduct interviews solely this way.
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December 8, 2015 at 4:22 am
There are technical fundamentals that I would expect practitioners at the applicable level to understand and be able to describe, however, I never expect anyone to remember syntax accurately. For a start, interviewing is using a different communication mechanism than coding. One is verbal whilst the other is physical and through a keyboard.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
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