February 17, 2012 at 10:50 am
I am reminded of the account told by Paul Randal when he talks about the need of having a good database RESTORE plan and not just a backup plan. In that case a financial institution had one full backup from a few months prior, no differentials but a lot of transaction log backups. The problem that they called Paul in for could not be fixed any other way than restoring from backup. The process took I believe 4 days. They lost customers and went out of business.
I would also argue that it was a lack of a competent DBA that failed to take the restoration process into consideration in the months between the full backup and the restore, but it was still a small, although important part of a DBAs function that was part of the institution's demise.
-----------------
Larry
(What color is your database?)
February 17, 2012 at 11:00 am
Most business don't need stellar personnel in any position. They need "good enough". But given the choice between a stellar DBA, stellar software dev, or stellar salesperson, most businesses would be better off taking the salesperson and leaving "good enough" on the other two jobs.
Also, a salesperson taking a few days off isn't comparable to a server being down for several days. More comparable would be a salesperson who caused you to be hit by an expensive false-advertising lawsuit, or breach of contract lawsuit, by being disasterously incompetent. What you're citing isn't the same order of magnitude.
I would only make some minor corrections to the following above statements, Otherwise I agree:
Most business don't want to pay for stellar personnel in any position. In most cases, they can only afford "good enough". But given the choice between a stellar DBA, stellar software dev, or stellar salesperson, most businesses would be better off taking the salesperson and leaving "good enough" on the other two jobs, until their website goes down for a couple of hours. Then all bets are off. A DBA is never appreciated until things don't work.
Also, a salesperson taking a few days off isn't comparable to a server being down for several days. True, but I believe I said a couple of hours is enough for any CEO to feel the impact of a crucial web site database being down, not several days. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
February 17, 2012 at 11:15 am
If you sell a product that doesn’t deliver what you promise, you won’t have many customers because, with software - people talk. In my experience, research of a product is always done before a purchase is made. The salesperson may get them in the door, but in the end it is always the product that seals the deal. If you don’t pay your developers well, they move on and your product suffers. When your product suffers, your customers move on.
Tim.
February 17, 2012 at 11:17 am
If you watch TV commercials, you may notice that the best salesmen are cute kids, dogs, and cats, in this order. No experience necessary.
Draw your own conclusions, DBAs. 😉
February 17, 2012 at 11:32 am
TravisDBA (2/17/2012)
Most business don't need stellar personnel in any position. They need "good enough". But given the choice between a stellar DBA, stellar software dev, or stellar salesperson, most businesses would be better off taking the salesperson and leaving "good enough" on the other two jobs.
Also, a salesperson taking a few days off isn't comparable to a server being down for several days. More comparable would be a salesperson who caused you to be hit by an expensive false-advertising lawsuit, or breach of contract lawsuit, by being disasterously incompetent. What you're citing isn't the same order of magnitude.
I would only make some minor corrections to the following above statements, Otherwise I agree:
Most business don't want to pay for stellar personnel in any position. In most cases, they can only afford "good enough". But given the choice between a stellar DBA, stellar software dev, or stellar salesperson, most businesses would be better off taking the salesperson and leaving "good enough" on the other two jobs, until their website goes down for a couple of hours. Then all bets are off. A DBA is never appreciated until things don't work.
Also, a salesperson taking a few days off isn't comparable to a server being down for several days. True, but I believe I said a couple of hours is enough for any CEO to feel the impact of a crucial web site database being down, not several days. 😀
Still not a fair comparison. Comparing a salesperson being of a few days to a server being down at all isn't even apples and oranges, it's apples and the writings of Plato, or something equally incomparable. The proper comparison for a salesperson being off for a few days and being noticed by the CEO is the DBA being off for a few days and being noticed by the CEO. The proper comparison for your web presence being down for a few minutes/hours/days/centuries/geological epochs/whatever, is your whole sales, support, customer relations, et al, team being non-responsive for the same amount of time. A few businesses could survive that, but most couldn't.
Yes, the CEO is more likely to notice that sites have been down and revenue is being lost than he is to notice that a salesperson, even your best salesperson, has been on PTO and took a 3-day weekend. He's also more likely to notice his office is on fire (guess the facilities maintenance people or the janitor who cleans the ashtrays is more important than the DBA in that case). He's more likely to notice his secretary is on a long lunch (definitely pay her more than the whole combined IT team, since it will take seconds for him to notice her absense and probably minutes or hours to notice theirs). He's even more likely to notice if his chair breaks when he sits down in it, so I guess the furniture aquisition personnel (in finance maybe?) are even more important and should be paid even more!
Those are all silly comparisons.
But which of these is he likely to pay more attention to:
We finally achieved 4-9s uptime this year, up from 3-9s last year! The new DBA rocks! That's 9 less hours of downtime spread over a whole year. (That's about 1.5 minutes of reduced downtime per day. Totally awesome improvement.)
One of our salespeople just doubled our revenue. The new salesperson rocks! Double-bonuses for the C-level execs!
That's a more real difference between stellar DBA vs competent DBA and stellar salesperson vs competent.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 17, 2012 at 11:35 am
Revenant (2/17/2012)
If you watch TV commercials, you may notice that the best salesmen are cute kids, dogs, and cats, in this order. No experience necessary.Draw your own conclusions, DBAs. [Wink]
That's it - I'm going to use my cat's picture as an avatar from now on (since I lack cute kids). :hehe:
Now for the apples and oranges discussion:
Apples are sweet, and they are good for you.
Oranges are tart, and they are good for you.
Which would you pay more for?
Steph Brown
February 17, 2012 at 11:36 am
Revenant (2/17/2012)
If you watch TV commercials, you may notice that the best salesmen are cute kids, dogs, and cats, in this order. No experience necessary.Draw your own conclusions, DBAs. 😉
They can probably sell software, but can they develope software? No. 🙂
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
February 17, 2012 at 12:00 pm
If you ask a salesperson, they will say the salesperson should make more. If you ask a developer, they will say a developer should make more. The only objective answers would come from someone who has done both (and even that wouldn't be totally objective since the person was probably better at one than the other).
In other words, everyone thinks that their own job is more important/requires more skills than the other guy's.
February 17, 2012 at 12:28 pm
It's not a silly comparison IMHO to say that a CEO or CIO is going to notice a major order Processing website database down for however long, alot more than a top salesman being out for a few days. At least not in the case of my company anyway. If our flagship sites go down all hell breaks loose from the top down, thats a fact. Salesman bring in business, But DBA's keep it online and running. Granted, they are very different as you say, but the nonethless just as important. That is all I'm trying to say. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
February 17, 2012 at 12:33 pm
Heather May (2/17/2012)
If you ask a salesperson, they will say the salesperson should make more. If you ask a developer, they will say a developer should make more. The only objective answers would come from someone who has done both (and even that wouldn't be totally objective since the person was probably better at one than the other).In other words, everyone thinks that their own job is more important/requires more skills than the other guy's.
I've done both, and I think they should both earn what they're worth to the company.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 17, 2012 at 12:51 pm
GSquared (2/17/2012)
Heather May (2/17/2012)
If you ask a salesperson, they will say the salesperson should make more. If you ask a developer, they will say a developer should make more. The only objective answers would come from someone who has done both (and even that wouldn't be totally objective since the person was probably better at one than the other).In other words, everyone thinks that their own job is more important/requires more skills than the other guy's.
I've done both, and I think they should both earn what they're worth to the company.
The problem, of course, is that in the vast majority of instances the top of the totem pole is occupied by those who came up the Sales Path. The value judgment is established by them, to their benefit. They tilt the playing field towards their end.
February 17, 2012 at 12:51 pm
TravisDBA (2/17/2012)
It's not a silly comparison IMHO to say that a CEO or CIO is going to notice a major order Processing website database down for however long, alot more than a top salesman being out for a few days. At least not in the case of my company anyway. If our flagship sites go down all hell breaks loose from the top down, thats a fact. Salesman bring in business, But DBA's keep it online and running. Granted, they are very different as you say, but the nonethless just as important. That is all I'm trying to say. 😀
No.
That's not the same thing at all. Not even vaguely.
If the DBA goes on PTO for a day, do your "flagship sites go down" and "all hell breaks loose the top down"? If so, then the DBA is grossly incompetent is all that means. PTO for a day != whole interface to your public is gone.
If a salesperson goes on PTO for a day, does all hell break loose. No.
That's the right comparison. Very low impact in both cases. If anything, future revenue is more likely to suffer from a salesperson missing a day of work than from a DBA missing a day of work. Probably a small impact, in most cases, and possibly a positive one if the salesperson arrives back from his PTO energized and refreshed and ready to close more business than he otherwise might have.
The DBA is not the website. He's not even the database server. He's a person who's responsible for it, but he isn't the thing. That's what you're equating. You're saying you *are* the web presence. I don't think AI has come far enough for a web server to post things like you do on this forum, so I seriously doubt that's the case.
I took a week off from work in December. I plan to take another week in March. Will the database servers keep running? They did in December, and they most likely will in March. Will me being gone for a few days even be noticed by the CEO? Probably not. I'd hate to distract him with something as trivial as some PTO for me. He's got better things to do with his time than keep track of my whereabouts.
Is that the same as if the servers were down for a week? Of course not. But that's not the subject here! DBA being harder to replace, or better paid, than salesperson, is what we're talking about here. Not the presence of absence of the major interface between the company and its customers.
If you quit your job, would you be harder (or more expensive) to replace than the company's top salesperson? That's the question.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 17, 2012 at 12:52 pm
RobertYoung (2/17/2012)
GSquared (2/17/2012)
Heather May (2/17/2012)
If you ask a salesperson, they will say the salesperson should make more. If you ask a developer, they will say a developer should make more. The only objective answers would come from someone who has done both (and even that wouldn't be totally objective since the person was probably better at one than the other).In other words, everyone thinks that their own job is more important/requires more skills than the other guy's.
I've done both, and I think they should both earn what they're worth to the company.
The problem, of course, is that in the vast majority of instances the top of the totem pole is occupied by those who came up the Sales Path. The value judgment is established by them, to their benefit. They tilt the playing field towards their end.
I don't have stats to either support or deny that assertion. Most companies I've worked for, the top execs went up the "I own the company path".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 17, 2012 at 1:03 pm
We finally achieved 4-9s uptime this year, up from 3-9s last year! The new DBA rocks! That's 9 less hours of downtime spread over a whole year. (That's about 1.5 minutes of reduced downtime per day. Totally awesome improvement.)
One of our salespeople just doubled our revenue. The new salesperson rocks! Double-bonuses for the C-level execs!
That's a more real difference between stellar DBA vs competent DBA and stellar salesperson vs competent.
This in itself is a bit of a silly comparison. That said - this does illustrate a common reason why IT gets looked at in the way it does.
The DBA accomplishment doesn't bother to explain what value the company might get out of it. (e.g. this opens our company to bid in the high-performance tier of XYZ product, which has 20 gazillion simolions in unfilled contracts today). No attempt whatsoever to tie it to the bottom line.
The sales accomplishment apparently took the effort in terms of how much net revenue was brought in. It is in fact an exceptional accomplishment, so it does in fact deserve to be recognized.
Again - stop presuming that the C-levels can in any way understand what value to just added. Spell it out.
The sad part is that it technically is EASIER for IT to contribute to the bottom line than sales can: every 1$ in cost savings contribute 1$ back to profit. In most markets, each 1$ in sales might contribute .20$ or less to profit.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
February 17, 2012 at 1:04 pm
GSquared (2/17/2012)
RobertYoung (2/17/2012)
GSquared (2/17/2012)
Heather May (2/17/2012)
If you ask a salesperson, they will say the salesperson should make more. If you ask a developer, they will say a developer should make more. The only objective answers would come from someone who has done both (and even that wouldn't be totally objective since the person was probably better at one than the other).In other words, everyone thinks that their own job is more important/requires more skills than the other guy's.
I've done both, and I think they should both earn what they're worth to the company.
The problem, of course, is that in the vast majority of instances the top of the totem pole is occupied by those who came up the Sales Path. The value judgment is established by them, to their benefit. They tilt the playing field towards their end.
I don't have stats to either support or deny that assertion. Most companies I've worked for, the top execs went up the "I own the company path".
Forbes thinks so:
"Until about ten years ago, most technology company CEOs career paths led through the CMO’s office. The prevailing belief was that marketing touched all aspects of the business, knew how to build market share, and understood emerging trends. Marketing also helped to inflate what now, in hindsight, was only a bubble.
A decade ago, when that bubble burst, the tables turned and the path to CEO was rerouted through sales. "
Note that "productive" positions aren't even mentioned. This is the generic CEO, not specifically software.
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