November 12, 2001 at 1:46 pm
Two things with $$
1. Employers don't upgrade that often, especially with database software. There is a cost involved with that. If and when they do upgrade, then paying for training is part of that cost and should be considered in line iwth the upgrade.
2. There is a cost in certification that really benefits the individual and not the company. However, a company has the right to let you work off the cost of your increased value. I had a company that had a 1 yr clause. If you leave within the year of their paying for education, you must reimburse them. Seems fair. In the long run you benfit, but in the short run, the empoyer gains because they get guarenteed work. Not to mention that most people pursuing certs or other education are the most ambitious and productive usually.
Steve Jones
November 12, 2001 at 1:49 pm
My biggest problem with Certification is employers. Unfortunately, in some cases, too much emphasis has been placed on certification and not enough on "Real World" experience.While it certainly is true you can learn things from reading books cover to cover, the reality of it is that experience exposes you to scenarios you would rarely (if ever) find covered in a book.
Certainly I would choose a VB developer with documented experience over one who has little or no experience but managed to get certified.
To me Certification should be more a tie breaker, one in which candidates have very close skills, but only one (as an example) is certified. This tells me that they know more of the "text book" or "material", and also have the desire to learn more.
In a nutshell, Certification should *not* be the "means to an end", it should be something that complements and extends the knowledge gained from being in the trenches.
November 12, 2001 at 2:29 pm
November 12, 2001 at 2:33 pm
Not exactly. I do think certs should be required, but as far as their value to employres, they should be tiebreakers.
Steve Jones
November 12, 2001 at 3:10 pm
Being from London like Duncan, I've been keeping a close eye on the UK job market. I get the impression that there is little requirement to have a MCDBA,MCSE or even to be MCP, when applying for SQL Admin jobs. I personally have 3 out of the 4 MCDBA exams. My remaining exam is Win 2k Server, but the SQL Admin jobs posted on UK Jobserve usually ask for DTS/OLAP experience as somethng that sets you apart, rather than all of a MCDBA, so I've decided to put my energy into learning datawarehousing instead. Of course there is a certificate for OLAP, but according to Brian Knight (http://www.sqlservercentral.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=637&FORUM_ID=10&CAT_ID=4&Topic_Title=SQL%202000%20Administration%20Exam&Forum_Title=Certification) an enema from Olga the 95 year old nurse is preferable.
Paul Ibison
Paul Ibison
Paul.Ibison@replicationanswers.com
November 13, 2001 at 5:19 am
As a consultant , I've been developing solutions with SQL Server since version 4.1, and in 1998 I decided to get certified in v 6.5 - both the admin and design exams. I have been too busy to bother with SQL7 and SQL2000 exams. And in this down market, I just raised my rate by 25%. Quality is always in demand - never forget that.
But because I am certified, I sometimes get calls to do basic SQL admin work, like fixing failed backups, tuning, etc. Not my focus, but work is work.
I am a solution architect. That person who interfaces with the business so that the end solution really does what the business needs. (which is usually not what they say they want!)
My background is heavy in business, where I usually spend quite a bit of time with the business. And then translate that into technical terms for the more technical staff.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of technical people out there, but few who understand how to talk to the business. And with this business focus, I usually get ask to assist in hiring the full-time DBA's to develop and support applications.
Should you get certified? I would say yes. But you need to understand that managers and companies are all different. Some are good, and some are not. Some know how to hire, and some do not.
If you use certification as a way to learn, and show that you are motivated, and believe in what you are doing, that is a great reason to get certified - perhaps even an MSDBA. I would love to get my MSDBA. I just don't have the time (kids, wife, life, etc).
If you just want a basic certification, just so you get past the sometimes brain-dead HR people, then just get a single certification. And then get re-certified only when the marketplace is telling you to re-certifiy. NEVER get arrogent about it, just realize it is all part of the market place game - play wisely and will have work!
You are selling a product - you. Understand what it is they want, and then package the product.
But don't get certified as a way to think you will get a job. Compare an IT certification to the other professions such as CPA's or lawyers. (I am a CPA & MBA by the way). A freshly minted CPA has very little experience, and thus only gets the low level jobs (grunt work). The CPA gets them in the door. Experience and the CPA gets them the better jobs.
Does the SQL Server certification help me, yes. However, my other experience and business background adds more value. But without the basic SQL Server certification - even if it is in version 6.5, I would not get some of the work that I get.
Keep a cool head and get a single SQL certification - just to get you in the game.
Then if you want to learn more, go for it.
What's the business problem you're trying to solve?
November 13, 2001 at 8:25 am
AFPEterson,
Well written and a certification like the MCDBA is like a CPA, though I wish it were like a PE.
Should we require certifications? A CPA is really required (after some time). You will not move up or may not even keep your job if you cannot achieve the CPA after some amount of time.
Steve Jones
November 13, 2001 at 9:33 am
Steve, I think the problem is not every job or company needs the skills of a CPA or a PE. Have you read After the Gold Rush by Steve McConnell? He talks about software as engineering - a little different than just coding! I think if you step back, even that someone has a CPA doesn't mean as much as you might like - there are good ones and bad ones, some with experience that fits your needs and some that dont. Hopefully what it, or any other certification, degree, etc, means is that they have a base level of knowledge and the ability to apply it. I think what we're arguing about is what constitutes base knowledge?
Andy
November 13, 2001 at 10:20 am
Haven't read it, and I would agree that not everyone requires that level of expertise. But part of what the certification does is present to an employer some level of base knowledge. Doesn't prove the person is a good employee / timely/ works hard/ etc. Just tries to quantify for a business manager the "black box" nature of what we do.
How many employers even know if they need a DBA? How many of them know what we do and how important it is? Or isn't? Most likely only those that have had a DBA do something useful or important for them in the past.
The baseline of a CPA means that someone placed effort into learning about their craft. That is what I would think all (or most) employers would want.
As far as software as engineering. Not sure about that. That's a debate in itself:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/11/05/1410251&mode=flat
Steve Jones
November 13, 2001 at 12:00 pm
Base level knowledge - a starting point.
That is where I see certification for any profession.
But remember, IT is a young profession.
For other professions, doctors, lawyers, accountants and engineers, the certification is statutory. That is, the government, usually states, manage the certification. With the intent of protecting the end consumer of the profession. And with the ability to remove said certification if the professional does not live up to the standards and Ethics outlined for the profession.
(alas, ethics is at question for Microsoft)
IT certifications are driven by the vendor,
or other market driven providers. So it should not be a surprise that some customers view certification as less than legitimate.
So, for example, a DBA certification should weight more towards backup, triggers, etc. and not the latest widget, such as XML.
What's the business problem you're trying to solve?
November 13, 2001 at 1:57 pm
I agree with the differences. I think that at some point, for at least some sections, there should be statutary regulations for computer professionals. Especially where life may be at risk.
I hate the fact the certifications are vendor driven. They should be moved to independent bodies that exmamine the producst and produce the certification. Perhaps the vendor would even have to fund the group, though they could derive the revenue.
Steve Jones
November 13, 2001 at 5:48 pm
quote:
For other professions, doctors, lawyers, accountants and engineers, the certification is statutory. That is, the government, usually states, manage the certification. With the intent of protecting the end consumer of the profession. And with the ability to remove said certification if the professional does not live up to the standards and Ethics outlined for the profession.
Even this doesn't guarantee anything, though it's a whole lot better than vendor driver certifications. It wasn't too long ago that one of the news programs like Dateline or 60 Minutes ran a story about doctors being licensed to practice medicine with respect to the US military. Some doctors that had failed to receive their license after repeated attempts signed up for the military and negotiated a medical slot, and apparently there were some states that basically said, "If you are going to practice medicine for the military, you're certified, no questions asked." That's how they finally were licensed. Scary, isn't it?
There are some examples of vendor independent certs (A+ and Network+ come immediately to mind) but let's face it, most managers that are using Microsoft are going to want to hire Microsoft-certified people. Cisco, HP, Compaq, it's all the same way. Ultimately, how a vendor handles its certification will determine how the certifications are treated. For instance, Microsoft certs like the MCSE have been questioned, but notice that the CCIE or even CCNP is usually not.
Best way to see if a candidate is qualified is to subject them to a "lab." If the candidate refuses to take the lab, that's an X. When a candidate does take the lab, evaluate the performance and make the decision from there. Certs or no certs.
K. Brian Kelley
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/columnists/bkelley/
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
November 14, 2001 at 12:48 pm
Having been around this industry for 17 years now, I tend to agree that certification should count, but should not be the sole deciding factor for the hiring decision. I've seen far too many paper CNAs, CNEs, MCSE, MCDBAs, etc. in my time.
"My third biggest complaint about the exams is that they are not presented in a good format. Rarely does one have to actually use the tool in an exam. A better format would include the real tools, or mockups of them, that would force one to actually perform the function. An examinee might be asked to give Jim access to the Sales database. The user would have to create the login and user and assign rights using the tool. Along these lines, I think the exam should include the same tools that an examinee would have in the real world. For SQL, I would expect to have TechNet and BOL available. If the exam is long enough and the time limits short enough, an examinee would not be able to look up every answer. But a professional would be able to use BOL to quickly find what they needed for a question or two."
Ironically enough my now former employer (Mentor Technologies Group, Inc., yet another dot-com smoking hole in the ground) had a product called vLab which allowed you to utilize real equipment/software via a web interface. Tied too this was an assessment engine which would rate how you performed on the vLab exercise.
vLab was originally developed for Cisco gear, but we developed it for use with Microsoft Windows NT/2K and were looking at developing something for Sun as well for Solaris.
Pretty cool stuff. Too bad management screwed it all up...
-bob
November 21, 2001 at 8:27 am
Perception is all. What the certifications may accomplish is to give us a fundamental level to build upon, but they are perceived to be the result.
If you have been through the MCDBA process is at least a familiarity with normalization, adding users, and so forth. The tests, themselves, are designed to see if you have the basics. And yes, you could really work and memorize exactly what you need to pass the tests. And then?
You are now a MCDBA and someone asks you to create a database, or write one of those complex queries that, because you are still learning, expands to fill pages and pages of Query Analyzer. And then they ask you to write it to be more efficient. And you have a reason to learn how to write better SQL.
If you think that attaining the MCDBA is the end and now you are an expert, you're in for a rather rude shock. I have met many people who just want me to teach EXACTLY what they need to pass the next test. They see the exam itself as the goal.
Every discipline has its own language and concepts. I, too, am weak on OLAP. I have been exposed to it, but I haven't worked with it with any urgency.
The MCDBA has value, but the exposure to the concepts and best practices that underlie it are much more valuable in the long run. And the understanding that just attaining the MCDBA is only the very first, short step. The MCDBAs (as with most of the Microsoft certifications) might have been designed with the self-taught in mind. Those who have been through a college course, where normalization, data integrity, etc are part of the curriculum should have less to struggle with than those who are moving into the database field from another direction. For those, the MCDBA is not only a new concept, but a new foreign language.
Experience is important, but I would also quantify that. Someone who has spent most of their database life working in the much less confining world of Access are always in for an ego shock when they really start working with SQL Server, and they don't have the background or know where the tools are. Objects created in Access, that work just fine in that enviroment, are ugly step-children in SQL Server.
I would like to see levels of certifications, with the MCDBA being only the first step. The next level might be, for example, writing one of those complex queries and submitting that to a review board, much like the second level of Java certification (where you have to actually create something in Java - what a concept).
Patrick Birch
Quand on parle du loup, on en voit la queue
November 21, 2001 at 10:44 am
You mean actually use the product on the exam!!!! Oh My!!!!!!!
You should have to use the product on every exam.
Steve Jones
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