January 16, 2009 at 8:53 am
Bill Richards (1/16/2009)
I have a different perspective than many of the blogs I have read. It’s the employer’s money and the employer can do with it whatever he wants. If he wants to be more generous to some individuals than others, that is his prerogative.When you are highered, the amount you earn is a contract between the employer and the employee and no one else.
If overtime, the employee thinks he should be paid more, the employee can renegotiate with the employer. It has been my experience, if you can demonstrate that you add value to the company or that you now have more responsibility or that your salary is below the market value, an employer will give you a raise. If renegotiations do not meet your expectations, its a free country, perhaps it is time to look for an employer who will pay more.
As IT professionals, we don’t go into salary negotiations blindly. There are many salary surveys and other material that shows the high, low, and median range for individuals with your skill set. The best advice I could give, is go into salary negotiations fully aware of options.
As far as posting salaries, its no one else’s business what an employee and the employer have agreed upon. I agree with the longstanding common wisdom that salary is your own personal business.
Well Said! That's exactly my point.
* Noel
January 16, 2009 at 8:53 am
I also work for a county government where all the salaries are public. There are no negotiations for salary. There are pay grades and steps within the pay grade. You enter at the first step and progress through the steps over time.
In other words, pay is not based on merit but grade and time worked. Occasionally, jobs are reviewed and the pay grade is changed based, but there is no way to change your pay.
Since I am satisfied with the pay I receive, I find motivation for doing a good job from something other that pay. I take pride in the quality of work I do.
Steve
January 16, 2009 at 8:54 am
Good points Bill, but keep in mind if all salaries were confidential and secret then salary surveys would not be possible since information not known can't be shared.
Francis
January 16, 2009 at 9:00 am
I work for state government for the past 25 years and salaries are a matter of public record. I could go to the library and look them up but I have never done so. I do not want to be annoyed to find that someone whose work I don't respect is making more than I am. I can look at the salary ranges in our ads for comparable positions and see that I'm in the right range. Some of this is controlled by market forces. If web developers are in demand they may have to pay more to get one. But then in the next round of raises they tend to give "equity" raises to level the playing field.
Terri
To speak algebraically, Mr. M. is execrable, but Mr. C. is
(x+1)-ecrable.
Edgar Allan Poe
[Discussing fellow writers Cornelius Mathews and William Ellery Channing.]
January 16, 2009 at 9:22 am
Interesting perspectives. I've heard a lot of people say it's their business and to some extent they're right. Perhaps salary ranges are enough, but stop and think for a minute when you're not the minority.
There are plenty of people who use the "it's my business" (employee or owner) and then discriminate with women or other minorities. That's a reality.
I heard on the radio the other day that anytime there's a controversy you would do better to shine as much light on it as possible. I tend to think that about salaries. If you're worth getting paid more, people might grumble, but they inherently understand there is a reason. If they're being paid less, they should know it's because of their performance, not appearance.
It would also help to even things up between those that negotiate well and those that don't. There are jobs where negotiation is important, but most don't require this skill, at least not with regard to contracts.
January 16, 2009 at 9:25 am
Steve Jones - Editor (1/16/2009)
Interesting perspectives. I've heard a lot of people say it's their business and to some extent they're right. Perhaps salary ranges are enough, but stop and think for a minute when you're not the minority.
Of course, many companies will go outside the salary ranges to keep a skilled employee.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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January 16, 2009 at 9:27 am
Jack Corbett (1/16/2009)
Steve Jones - Editor (1/16/2009)
Interesting perspectives. I've heard a lot of people say it's their business and to some extent they're right. Perhaps salary ranges are enough, but stop and think for a minute when you're not the minority.Of course, many companies will go outside the salary ranges to keep a skilled employee.
Not if it's public, they wouldn't.
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January 16, 2009 at 9:30 am
Given my job description and title, I make way more then my colleagues. Given what I actually do, I get paid way less. Given my work experience and education, I'm probably in the right spot.
Disclosing employees salaries is meaningless unless the objective context for the salary can be included. Even then, there is always the subjective context, manager's opinion of effort against results, what the employee brings to the job other then experience and education etc.
So, would adding the objective/subjective context along with the salary be helpful in justifying someone's pay?
3c
January 16, 2009 at 9:41 am
Well, that's kinda the basic difference we are talking about here, Public vs Private companies.
Public jobs typically have bands and grades and such, and all people of similair function have the same grade or band. The only way to change bands is to change functions. Pay is not based on performance or merit, just time. Which is also why Public/Government jobs are not the way to get ahead financially.
Private jobs are payed by what you can bring to the company. Your skills and work ethic. Every person is different, and the salary negotiations reflect that. People who negotiate more are perceived to have more value to the company for whatever they do. Any given job might have an average value in the market, but if the company execs do think it's worth much, then they won't pay much, and anyone who is negotiating for that job has to decide if they are willing to work for less than the market value, which they might if other factors are important (ie less travel or closer to home or better hours or they are currently unemployeed). Disclosing the pay of each person opens up to speculation as to the circumstances to the difference between people who don't know why there is a difference. Was that person a bad negotiator, did he do something bad, is his work bad, or are you just so great. All questions I wouldn't want asked, if avoidable.
vetting out discrimination is important, but just exposing salaries does not answer that question.
Dan
January 16, 2009 at 9:45 am
I believe having all salaries openly known to all would just lead to jealousy unless the pay rates were rigorously maintained at equilibrium for similar work performed. This would then lead to either demands for pay increases (which could be a vicious cycle as then others would want pay raises), or turnover. Both would be bad for the company.
Unless, of course, your company is staffed with selfless, altruistic employees.
January 16, 2009 at 9:48 am
Measurement would matter. Opening things up would also cause people to rethink why and what they're paying for.
January 16, 2009 at 9:54 am
If all companies followed a grad system then there should be no problem in any one finding out what the others are earning. However, some earn more than others even if they are doing the same job, because you have to value each individual based on experience, knowledge and so on. As other mentioned here, having the salary info readily available to all will cause lots of issues and would cause the managers lots of headache.
January 16, 2009 at 9:54 am
Rob Ericsson (1/16/2009)
It's a pretty well known psychological principle that well being is judged vis a vis other people. Most people would be happier making $50K when everyone else makes $25K than $75K when everyone else makes $100K.Making salary information generally available runs the risk of making people much more unhappy because they will compare their salary to the salaries of those at the top. Why does my immediate manager make 25% more than me? Why does the top boss make 3x what I make?
If it was a really small company (less than 10) and the top people have salaries less or equal than everyone else, then it could work. Even in this case, you probably wouldn't disclose the valuation of their ownership in the firm. Otherwise, it is likely a recipe for dissatisfaction.
Funny you should mention this. There was a report of a psychological study that came out last week (too long ago now - I can't remember the link, so don't ask) that offered participants two alternatives: in a hypothetical company, they could be paid $50K and everyone else would get paid the same, or they could be paid $80K and everyone else would get an average pay of $100K. Despite the fact that they would be paid 60% more in the second scenario, most people said they would prefer the first scenario.
Of course in a real situation choices may differ.
January 16, 2009 at 9:59 am
Maybe we should be looking at this from the point of establishing and legitimizing IT as an actual profession in our society, like teachers, doctors and engineers.
IT is still in the 'cowboy' phase of becoming a profession, where top guns are for hire to solve your problems, both as consultants or as employees, if you want to pay. And this will always be the case with private consulting firms.
But for the rest of the masses graduating in IT, from colleges and trade schools and applying for jobs in IT departments in a multitude of industries, a legitimate title and pay scale should exist within our profession. We shouldn't have to look up what we're worth or what our title should be on Salary.com. Likewise, an employer should know what skill set he's hiring and what he/she can expect to pay an IT professional.
Well, it won't happen overnight. Our profession hasn't been around quite as long as the others. But we should strive to take the steps that will further establish our profession for those who come after us.
Alan Vogan
Application Systems Analyst IV \ DBA (as posted on salary.com):unsure:
January 16, 2009 at 10:03 am
Steve Jones - Editor (1/16/2009)
AndyD (1/16/2009)
HR Departments are certainly able to make these decisions.... they just judge you on the clothes you are wearing 😛:D, LOL, maybe that's why I keep looking for new jobs to make more money. Perhaps my clothes policy should be re-evaluated.
I have to put in a good word for HR (although I still don't agree with a one-style fits all work situations dress code):
At my last job, the HR Director noted that my salary was far below the comps for others in project management at the company, and he brought it to Executive management's attention. They authorized him to do a salary survey of similar positions at other companies in the local area so they would have sufficient data to make a real evaluation. The result was I received >25% range adjustment in one year!
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