January 15, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Open Source Pay
January 16, 2009 at 2:35 am
I'm not sure where I stand on this, on the one hand the openness of it means that there is no whispering around corners when it comes to pay negotiations, and it removes the ‘fear’ that other colleagues who do similar jobs or work to yourself are not making anymore or less than you. On the other I think it can have potential to cause resentment if there is a difference in pay, particularly in large organisations where employees don't necessarily know what the role or function of the person earning more than them is.
Good or Bad the majority of organisations I have worked for have been large (5000+ employees)...some have disclosed pay others haven't.
In the organisations where it has been disclosed it was usually used as a measure of responsibility within that organisation, the organisation I’m talking about here did not necessarily place at IT at the heart of its operation and if other areas of the business employee employees were earning more but, in the opinion of the IT staff anyway, these employees were making the same or even less of a contribution to the business then I think there was definitely resentment. Purely inside IT though it was used as a measure of responsibility the higher your grade the more responsibility you had.
Gethyn Elliswww.gethynellis.com
January 16, 2009 at 2:40 am
I regard it as normal to know roughly what everyone at work is paid, but then I have spent most of my time in public sector jobs (UK), where the job or the person has a grade or a pay band that is a matter of public record, at a rate negotiated collectively through national unions. When I did work for a small business, the attitude that everyone should keep their personal remuneration to themselves felt to me like a tool of paternalistic management. But then I have no insight into the mentality of the business entrepreneur, and would probably find the business ethos in the US totally baffling - different experience, in a different culture.
January 16, 2009 at 3:28 am
My Feeling is that it would be a good thing to know how much anyone in the company is paid
as it's done in European Institution (European Commission etc) and particularly in big comapnies
because there less fleexibilty in salary negotiation.
But in Small companies (less than 50) it could generates frustrations as first of all as employer you have to conviced new experienced comers to work for you and for this you have to make them offers that they will not find in big companies. The problem with this is that each empoyee has negotiate his salary at his time and most of time new comers will received more than old employe. So or you put all other people at the same level of function to the same condition of the new comers or you make it hidden.
January 16, 2009 at 4:09 am
My view is that if the company is paying its staff FAIRLY, then there can be no resentment. In the EU, there is a "fair pay" directive which is gradually being implemented in member countries. What this stipulates is that 2 people, doing the same job, must be paid the same wage.
And the definition of the "same job" is very wide ranging. For example, you could compare equally-qualified people in IT and Legal, and determine that they do the same job and thus should receive the same remunerated.
You can imagine the arguments that this creates....
But, it does mean that salaries are completely open and fair. I don't agree that someone who shouts the loudest, or negotiates the hardest, should win a better salary. Salary should be based on skills, responsibilities, etc.
Andy
January 16, 2009 at 4:11 am
A lot of the "equal pay for equal work" issues gets resolved by Law, under Equality legislation especially is there are people of different sexes involved. Problems can arise with bonuses which often are based on non-public-information structure. There was a case in the UK last year, where a lead FX-trader was given the responsibility of deciding his teams profit share. He allocated memberA 0%, 1 memberB 2% and kept 98% (of a serious amount of money) for himself. I can't see memberA or memberB being happy with that outcome or with their management who allow such an environment to exist.
We operate in an environment where bonuses may be awarded at year end, but where bonus-bands or targets are not specified at the start of the year in the first place. In effect employees are encouraged to work "as hard as possible for as long as possible" on the "hope" of being treated fairly at the end of the year without knowing if the possible end-result is worth aiming for in the first place....and this is a large successful, quoted financial institution.
Be open. If there are problems as a result, deal with them. People can understand different paypackets once they can observe different value generated/different effort being expended. Pay secrecy is paternalistic and condescending to rational adults. But maybe that's the point of it....adults often don't behave rationally.:ermm:
January 16, 2009 at 5:31 am
Were I worked before...
In one, previous company...the pay sheet was open to anyone.
Result: resentment.
The rest of the companies...no should know except boss and HR.
Result: everyone still go to know via 'friends' but with nothing official, it was not much resentment.
My opinion: the latter should be followed.
Unless one is a not working well, then upward mobility is assured.
So time comes when you have the same pay as an executive years ago, so guess who would resent at you...The ones where you came from below and the ones you left behind.
January 16, 2009 at 5:41 am
Well there is nothing stopping employees from telling each other how much they make, so if this is something that employees really wanted they could make it happen with or without management. I think this shows that most employees like it closed.
January 16, 2009 at 5:54 am
No. I don't want to be angry at anyone becuase they're making more than I think they're worth and I don't want anyone angry at me for the same reason. Ignorance is bliss.
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January 16, 2009 at 5:55 am
In Denmark it was that long ago that employers actually could decide that you couldn't disclose what you earned to your colleagues.
It was only with the passing of a gender equality law package, that this was made illegal. Now everyone is free to make their salary public.
Somehow people seldom do this. I do not understand why. The only ones getting an advantage by this is the employer. If you do the same work as another person in the company, I cannot fathom why you would prefer to not know that he gets a higher salary than you. Not knowing makes it harder for you to get a fair deal at salary negotiations.
January 16, 2009 at 6:02 am
There was a book titles Maverick by Ricardo Semla who was the CEO of a Brazilian pump company. I is quite old now but it was cutting edge 15 years ago. They did this along with many other inovative actions.
I agrre with it, I couls see what everyone is getting including bonuses and other added incentives. Thus any unfairness can dealt with.
January 16, 2009 at 6:20 am
I think the problem with full disclosure is that then you need to develop measurements to accurately define how 'skilled' someone is. Stop laughing everyone, I know that's supposed to be part of the job description and all, but how often does that line up with the reality of the job? How often have you found a manager who was promoted to incompetence? If I do a 'better' job than the next guy, how is that defined as 'better'? How much better? How much money does that equate to?
I don't know about the rest of your companies, but our HR department is definitely not qualified to make that kind of measurement, and I'd only have marginally more confidence in our management. I've been asking for job standards for a year now with no results, other than general statements.
I think having a pay grade is not a bad thing, at least then you have an idea what range you're negotiating within, but can still keep salary from other members of your team to avoid resentment.
Interesting concept Steve, but I think it's a bit like Marxism - great concept, as long as you ignore that minor factor of Human Nature.
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January 16, 2009 at 6:27 am
HR Departments are certainly able to make these decisions.... they just judge you on the clothes you are wearing 😛
January 16, 2009 at 6:29 am
There's no situation that would make me happy to know what anyone else is making. If the person is making what I assume they are making, then I won't be any happier. If they are making less, I'll feel bad for them. If they are making more than I believe they are, I'll resent it. As DBAs some of us might have access to this data. I have never taken advantage of it, nor would I ever want to. If you felt you were underpaid and found out your manager didn't make much more than you, would you want to stick around?
I work at a small company. We don't talk about these things. Our boss is on top of everything and if someone's pay isn't in line with the work they perform, things will be adjusted. I don't worry about it since it's not my job.
January 16, 2009 at 6:34 am
if all employees are treated fairly then i see no issues however this is probably never going to be the case. We had a snafu where everyone received a master credit card statement. People were very upset with some of the expenses claimed on there however they had no background as to what the need for them was. There are political needs for some outrageous expenses and just because joe peon got to do it doesn't mean that sally exec deserves it and vice versa.
You have to be willing to pony up and be fair across the board as well as have a great atmosphere where there is no distention between the ranks. Then it would be ok.
The larger question though is why? if you treat all of your employees well and they are happy they would probably not care as long as you could provide them meaningful information about the standing of the company. It is not Joe Peons place to know the finite details of the expenses of the company. It is his job to do his job. The company needs to provide him the tools to do the best he can one of these tools being confidence.
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