December 5, 2011 at 7:51 am
I have not received overtime for a very, very long time while I routinely work 55 to 70 hours per week, depending.
On the up side, we receive a "premium" when on call. There is the on call base that is a per diem rate just "for the honor" of being on call. Then if a call is received we receive a per-incident premium for each call.
I don't see not receive overtime as an issue simply because I do what is expected in order to complete my required tasks. If that takes me longer than 50 hours (my salary is based on that hour value) so be it. I'm still employed which is more than I can say for some of my friends.
Please tell me, are there any IT people out there that work only 40 hours per week? :unsure: Somehow I doubt it.
Regards, Irish
December 5, 2011 at 8:05 am
Jeffrey Irish (12/5/2011)
I have not received overtime for a very, very long time while I routinely work 55 to 70 hours per week, depending.On the up side, we receive a "premium" when on call. There is the on call base that is a per diem rate just "for the honor" of being on call. Then if a call is received we receive a per-incident premium for each call.
I don't see not receive overtime as an issue simply because I do what is expected in order to complete my required tasks. If that takes me longer than 50 hours (my salary is based on that hour value) so be it. I'm still employed which is more than I can say for some of my friends.
Please tell me, are there any IT people out there that work only 40 hours per week? :unsure: Somehow I doubt it.
32 to 35 hours or less.
I've just increased to 40 hours to compensate the most unbelievable string of unexpected events.
I drop at 25 during the summer.
December 5, 2011 at 8:51 am
After reading the editorial and the comments I have somewhat mixed feelings and am struck with these three thoughts:
1.) It's not my job, it is my employers job and I am in that slot for the time being. If I am working 60 hrs and getting paid for 40 hrs, then I am either getting a much lower hourly compensation and I am willing to put up with it, or I am on a firstname basis with my circle of headhunters and "looking hard for an immediate change".
2.) Employers already pay a stiff administrative cost to comply with numerous "labor regulations". This money could be going to much more deserving recipients, me for example, instead of an additional admin person that has to keep up with the compliance with these regulations. The less rules the better. The job market forces will dictate what the average compensation should be, and if the employer is not paying it now, he will be soon with retraining costs for the new employees.
3.) Although I like my job, and want to keep it, the end result is that I'm working for the money, and I wouldn't come to work to work for free. Money is what it is all about. Having a great place to work counts for a lot, but again, money is what it is all about.
December 5, 2011 at 9:40 am
SQLLearner1 (12/5/2011)
Hi,I guess I don't fully understand, but maybe someone can help me out.
**** This bill is aimed squarely at reducing pay for those people in the industry that make the least amount of money. ****
Wouldn't this bill help someone who only makes 40 Grand a year? The way I see it, this bill would help those making less than the threshold? Or am I missing something?
If you make more than about $28/hour, you're exempt anyway. However this bill adds exemptions for new job titles (database, network people, others), so if you make less than $28/hr, you might be moved from hourly to salary.
December 5, 2011 at 9:47 am
john.campbell-1020429 (12/5/2011)
2.) Employers already pay a stiff administrative cost to comply with numerous "labor regulations". This money could be going to much more deserving recipients, me for example, instead of an additional admin person that has to keep up with the compliance with these regulations. The less rules the better. The job market forces will dictate what the average compensation should be, and if the employer is not paying it now, he will be soon with retraining costs for the new employees.
Yes and no. The compliance is onerous at times, and it's a result of many companies not treating workers fair.
The "market" is highly imperfect. Why do we still have sweatshops? Why do people work in them? People need jobs. If you look at conditions 60-100 years ago, workers were treated very badly, like disposable monkeys. If you've seen Blood Diamond, it's the worse in other parts of the world.
Not that I think we are like a coal or diamond mine, but in IT it is easy for people to be abused, and continue to be abused in companies. You might switch jobs, but at some point there are people that are more desperate and take jobs, even when they work in conditions that are unhealthy.
We need some "bumpers" from government to prevent abuses, but not so many that they are onerous. I'd like to see more general, fair, common sense rules rather than strict, detailed instructions.
December 5, 2011 at 9:49 am
Jeffrey Irish (12/5/2011)
I have not received overtime for a very, very long time while I routinely work 55 to 70 hours per week, depending.
Last job I had like that I kept only because the market was in a horrible position. I got out as soon as things picked up. I'd say 'Never Again' but I prefer eating to pride, if the decision comes to that again.
On the up side, we receive a "premium" when on call. There is the on call base that is a per diem rate just "for the honor" of being on call. Then if a call is received we receive a per-incident premium for each call.
That's a difference with me. I force them to pay me for being on call. If anyone calls, I take care of it. If you're going to tie me to a 10 minute timeline to being on a computer, you're going to pay for interrupting my life.
I don't see not receive overtime as an issue simply because I do what is expected in order to complete my required tasks.
Then there needs to be more people doing said tasks.
If that takes me longer than 50 hours (my salary is based on that hour value) so be it. I'm still employed which is more than I can say for some of my friends.
A personal decision to take the abuse for the security of the position. You're not alone in that choice.
Please tell me, are there any IT people out there that work only 40 hours per week? :unsure: Somehow I doubt it.
Me, for the past several years.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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December 5, 2011 at 10:09 am
I've worked 40 hours for week in a number of jobs. Not every week, I had a few 50-60 hour weeks, and even had a few 100 hour weeks, but if you work more than 40-45 hours (we all slack a bit at work), the majority of weeks, you are doing something wrong.
December 5, 2011 at 11:44 am
If you are working overtime, in most cases it shows that your boss is a poor manager, because either --
- he is unable to estimate what can be reasonably done within 40 hours;
- or he is unable or unwilling to protect you from pressures from his own boss;
- or he hired a wrong guy for the job.
I said "mostly" because in our line of work it sometimes happens that a production job crashes and we may be asked to "get it running, no matter what it takes." It happens and I am usually the one who works over the weekend because I no longer have to drive my kids to baseball games, dance lessons or karate classes.
In these cases, I ask for and usually get OT signed without a prior approval, as a justifiable and justified exception, or take some comp time.
Witht hat I usually keep my work hours under 50 per week.
December 5, 2011 at 11:55 am
I would like to clarify my position a bit.
If you are hiring me for a database administrator or database developer position and tell me I will be working 40 to 45 hours a week, but mostly 40, then good. But if you are telling me this but actually know I will need to put in 50+ hours a week as the norm, then you are lying to me and stealing my time.
I would have no problem going into a job knowing that I will be expected to work about 50 hours a week but I would also expected to be compensated for it with a higher salary and/or more paid time off.
The bottom line is treat me fairly and I will treat you fairly.
December 5, 2011 at 2:57 pm
Jeffrey Irish (12/5/2011)Please tell me, are there any IT people out there that work only 40 hours per week? :unsure: Somehow I doubt it.
That would be me. I have only worked overtime once this year, on a migration project for the General Ledger which required the entire team (including executives) to be in for almost the entire weekend. Prior to that, the last time I worked overtime would have been about 3 years ago, and I forget what that was for.
Admittedly, in Australia we're pretty fairly compensated and have rules about overtime. There are a few companies that do try to abuse their employees (IBM GSA have an expectation of 50 hrs per week), but they quickly get known around the place and have a pretty high turnover.
Companies that look after their employees seem to retain them.
We also have a guideline that people who work in the financial services industry (banks, investment management etc) take a minimum of two continuous weeks holiday per year, by direction if you don't volunteer it. This is to ensure that if you're attempting to fiddle the books, you will be found out.
December 5, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (12/3/2011)
The worst abuse is when they set short project deadlines without any attempt to match the workload to the available staff, and then expect people to work extremely long hours to meet the deadline.A occasional long workday to get a critical task done is one thing, but when people are put in a position where they are expected to work long hours for weeks or months, then that is just abuse.
I see this coming on a project that kicks off next week. The plan was put together by non-IT people who made no allowance for the considerable programming time required, no allowance for time to purchase and setup new systems, and no allowance for the fact that a number of key people have significant vacation time scheduled.
I was right about the project. When the project manager tried to explain to the senior executive that the target date was way too aggressive, the replay was "I don't care, that's your problem". Guess he doesn't realize he can't snap his finger and make a month's worth of work disappear, and it will be his problem when he has to tell his customer the bad news.
Got to love it when the project is behind the 8-ball from day one. The project manager sounded like he wanted to cry during the kick off meeting.
Fortunately from me, the DBAs will not be the ones on the hot spot for this project.
December 5, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (12/5/2011)
Michael Valentine Jones (12/3/2011)
The worst abuse is when they set short project deadlines without any attempt to match the workload to the available staff, and then expect people to work extremely long hours to meet the deadline.A occasional long workday to get a critical task done is one thing, but when people are put in a position where they are expected to work long hours for weeks or months, then that is just abuse.
I see this coming on a project that kicks off next week. The plan was put together by non-IT people who made no allowance for the considerable programming time required, no allowance for time to purchase and setup new systems, and no allowance for the fact that a number of key people have significant vacation time scheduled.
I was right about the project. When the project manager tried to explain to the senior executive that the target date was way too aggressive, the replay was "I don't care, that's your problem". Guess he doesn't realize he can't snap his finger and make a month's worth of work disappear, and it will be his problem when he has to tell his customer the bad news.
Got to love it when the project is behind the 8-ball from day one. The project manager sounded like he wanted to cry during the kick off meeting.
Fortunately from me, the DBAs will not be the ones on the hot spot for this project.
Do you wonder why 60+ percent of all IT project are failures?
Imagine that you had the same rate in say civil engineering, and most bridges would collapse even before they were completed.
December 6, 2011 at 12:17 am
Steve - I'm not sure where you're located, but here in NYC, some financial institutions implement what is known as a "professional day". In case this is foreign to you, this most unprofessional of concepts means that as a consultant, you do not get paid for all the hours you work. For instance, overtime (not time-and-half, but straight hourly rate) won't kick in until your 10th hour on site. So you're there for 10 hours, have 1 hour for lunch, but only get paid for 8 hours, even though you have actually worked 9.
This has been around at least 10 to 15 years, perhaps longer. I think it's specific to Wall Street.
I think that any one that agrees to work under these conditions makes it harder for all the rest of us who stick to our guns....
SQLNYC
December 6, 2011 at 3:03 am
I'm a consultant here in the UK. I either contract to be paid on an hourly basis, or on a daily basis, so the unpaid overtime only kicks in for daily deals.
It's pretty simple - the contract will specify the number of hours per day or week - and that's what I work. If there's a problem, I'll put in the extra to get the client out of the problem, providing that there's reciprication and I can take less hours another day.
If the client thinks he can get unpaid overtime, then I make it clear that I'll work strictly to the terms of the contract and I'll leave on the dot of 17:30. This is why I'm a freelancer - so I don't get exploited.
As it happens, I've only had to do this once or twice in almost 15 years of consultancy. My clients see that I deliver the goods efficiently and don't mind because both the quality and the speed of delivery is very good. My view is that If you're cutting quality code and working intensively, then after 7 hours of it, you'll be fit for nothing and should go home - doing otherwise leads to mistakes/suboptimal coding that you end up wasting time on the following day when you're rested and can think clearly.
I've also noticed through working with colleagues in the US that they like to put in the hours - in many cases, most unproductively. In one US office, at 7pm you could stroll from office to office and find techies who were pushing their pens around the desk, being afraid of going home before the boss. In another case a US colleague arrived in London from an overnight flight from NY (6 hour flight): Having got almost no sleep, he went straight to the office, worked a full day and didn't leave until 7pm. And he continued this punishing schedule, working 10+ hour days for a week. What good did it do him? None - they gave him a derisory bonus and then made him redundent.
December 6, 2011 at 3:05 am
Jeffrey Irish (12/5/2011)
Please tell me, are there any IT people out there that work only 40 hours per week? :unsure: Somehow I doubt it.
Count me in on that one Jeffrey! Honestly I would say in general I do 7.5 hours a day. I'll be honest though I agree with the study that says we all have 6 hours productive work a day. This would make 30 hours. I could if pressed get most of my work done in that time - but given that I am at work the rest of the time anyhow better not to hurry too much.
The longest I have worked at my current job is 50 hours in a week - this would have returned me a meaty fee for my 10 hours overtime. Do I feel guilty? No. Do I help the company make really good profits? I would not even mention the margins we achieve - but let's just say this year we met profit targets by April.
If you are working free over 40 hours a week you are donating very generously to your company owners (or perhaps stemming inefficiencies inherent in your employer - again not your problem) Robert Tressel might even term you a ragged-trousered philanthropist. You are not valuing your time enough.
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