November 7, 2011 at 3:25 am
should that be "heartily"? Bad spelling is worse than swearing in my book!
November 7, 2011 at 3:26 am
I agree with Lon-860191. Profanity is inappropriate in technical writing and in presentations.
To my mind there is a word of difference between spoken profanity (which I occasionally succumb to) and written
profanity, which I never do. I often see profanity on Facebook and occasionally on Twitter. I don't get offended by it,
but just keep setting my own example without evangelising.
November 7, 2011 at 4:55 am
While I do agree that there is no need for profanity in technical writing, documentation or presentations I completely disagree that it shouldn't be used in everyday life, workplace or otherwise.
This is actually a little annoyance of mine. Language in constantly evolving and what is/isn't accepted as profanity at any given time is generally dictated by society/culture and in lots of cases what societies deem as acceptable can vary wildly and be based on many factors, political agenda, religious views and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of some/the majority of the people or in fact the truth.
I don't want to go out of my way to offend people but it seems that these days people like to go out of their way to be offended as much as possible. If you know a comedian tells blue jokes and you don't like blue jokes then why watch him and them complain about him offending you!
This whole PC culture actually offends me, but as long as I don't say anything that may offend someone else then that's fine but if I have a different set of values and not being able to say what I like offends me then no one cares.
I will readily admit here that this may be stretching the topic a little and I am by no means advocating this argument to imply that things like racism are acceptable because not allowing it would infringe free speech (seriously that would just be stupid) but there is a world of difference between using words to offend and using words that may offend.
Getting back on topic; as has been said certain words will offend some cultures and not others and what is deemed profanity by one culture will not be by another. Society has it's place to dictate what is right and what is wrong (e.g. murder, crime) but on many things society shouldn't be involved at all as rarely reflects the opinions of those it claims to represent and rather the opinions of the richer, more powerful entities e.g. lobbyists, churches.
Things like the use of profanity are more down to the culture/upbringing/personality of the individual and should be left as such. If I use what you deem as profanity and it offends you and not me then I apologise but if you don't like it then you don't have to listen to me.
As I said this doesn't apply to technical writings or presentations as then you have an audience that has to listen to you and can't walk away so you do have to respect that but in any other environment (and I include the general workplace in this) when you can ignore me if you don't like what I say then ignore me. I won't be offended, honest.;-)
November 7, 2011 at 8:09 am
Perfectly put Phil. The most egregious example I've seen to date was in a PASS pre-conference seminar that contained both the harshest of profanities and blasphemy. Not only was the audience captive (as you are not supposed to switch precons), but they had paid good money for the right to be held captive.
November 8, 2011 at 8:40 am
Manie Verster (11/6/2011)
I honestly do not understand why people, in any sphere of life, has to spice their words with swearing and bad language. It is bad taste.
I grew up in a culture where it was "just the way people talked". There was no negative to it, it wasn't either good or bad manners, it was just, as George Carlin put it, use of the most flexible word in the English language.
Never even occured to me that people would find some of those words offensive until I moved out of that culture in my late 20s.
One thing to keep in mind in judging "bad words", is that most of the stigma attached to most "bad words" is that they were Saxon in nature, and the conquering Normans thought that using any Saxon words at all was proof of personal inferiority. In other words, the negative connotation to most English "swear words" is just pure racism of Normans vs Saxons. By considering the words "bad", you are simply being pro-racist.
That doesn't apply to blasphemous/sacreligious terms/phrases, nor to racist or other deliberately derogitory terms, of course. But it does apply to most "four-letter-words" and related Saxonisms.
Does that grant a license to use them where people will be shocked/offended/upset? Of course not. But it's better to be aware of why those words are "offensive" (racism) than to consider them in some way inherently "bad".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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November 8, 2011 at 9:14 am
I just thought of the ultimate captive audience:
The Marine boots in the movie Full Metal Jacket being subjected to the spectacular profanity of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman (played by R. Lee Ermey).
November 9, 2011 at 1:38 pm
Ian Elliott (11/7/2011)
Things like the use of profanity are more down to the culture/upbringing/personality of the individual and should be left as such.
One of the smartest things I have heard lately. Personally, I wish someone would put out a book called "SQL for Cussers". It would sell like hotcakes and probably be an interesting read to boot. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
November 9, 2011 at 2:18 pm
I have a feeling that Phil's editorial is a bit over the top on this, and if we all constrict ourselves to vocabulary that will offend no-one we will render ourselves unable to communicate effectively. So I'm more in agreement with Ian Elliott and Gus than with the editorial. There's too much "political correctness", and we need to rebel against it if we are not to be submerged.
That's not to say that I believe in using profanity when delivering a presentation to a paying audience, or indeed in saying anything that has no use other than to offend. But I do refuse to pay any attention to those who want to deny me the use of ordinary standard English words that can offend no one who is not looking for an excuse to claim to be offended.
Edit: I'll bet my current avatar isn't politically correct either :-). Is that too giving offense?
Tom
November 9, 2011 at 2:30 pm
Every vice is only an exaggeration of a necessary and virtuous function. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
While I agree that foul language don't belong in technical articles (which is what the article is all about) I also agree that it's a natural expression of the human being. It must be used moderately, yes. But not banned completely.
My wife has Italian blood and swears a lot when she's mad. I find it so funny.
Best regards,
Best regards,
Andre Guerreiro Neto
Database Analyst
http://www.softplan.com.br
MCITPx1/MCTSx2/MCSE/MCSA
November 10, 2011 at 1:24 am
I don't think anyone here wants to argue the 'politically-correct' stance that you should never use any language that could conceivably be offensive to some over-sensitive minority. The title really says what I suggest as the general golden rule, but I'm specifically talking about technical blogs, webcasts, presentations and articles that people feel obliged to read or listen to in order to keep up with the technology.
Best wishes,
Phil Factor
November 11, 2011 at 6:41 am
Phil, a question:
Would you be more offended by a technical article that used socially prohibited language, but not aimed at insulting any particular person, or an article that took an arrogant, belittling, derogatory attitude towards the reader, but without profanity?
I'm talking about stuff like Joe Celko's usual arrogance:
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1203112-392-1.aspx#bm1203278
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1195148-392-1.aspx#bm1196056
Vs what we could expect if Richard Pryor or George Carlin were to write a technical article in their usual presentation style when they did stand-up.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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November 11, 2011 at 7:29 am
I dislike both types of 'forum manners' intensely. For some reason, the database architects tend to fight like tigers on forums and newsgroups. Just have a look at this exchange all the way through to get a flavor of the playground behaviour that descends.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.databases.theory/browse_thread/thread/1a986ed358f3e07d?hl=en
Actually, in this debate, it is Derek who is getting totally out of order. It is supposed to be a little game they play, like jousting, but I find it childish.
Joe is the mildest and kindest person you'd ever want to meet, but when these guys get together in the newsgroups, things can get out of hand. Joe explains it as copying from his wife who is an ordained Soto Zen Priest who teaches by beating students with a stick. It goes with the 'Ming the Merciless look, but the 'Celko' of the newsgroups is nothing like the real Joe who is a pleasant and very knowledgeable guy.
As for me, I just won't read this sort of thing. I'm sticking with SQL Server Central.
Best wishes,
Phil Factor
November 11, 2011 at 7:57 am
Yeah, I've heard the same thing about Joe repeatedly. And he's told me the same about why he acts like he does online. There are reasons I refer to him as a rabid badger when he starts posting like that. (Sad part is, he really knows what he's talking about technically, but he alienates people so badly they ignore that and just react to the vitriol.)
I was just curious as to which one you personally would consider worse, if either.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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November 14, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Ian Elliott (11/7/2011)
I don't want to go out of my way to offend people but it seems that these days people like to go out of their way to be offended as much as possible. If you know a comedian tells blue jokes and you don't like blue jokes then why watch him and them complain about him offending you!This whole PC culture actually offends me, but as long as I don't say anything that may offend someone else then that's fine but if I have a different set of values and not being able to say what I like offends me then no one cares.
Amen Ian & I am offended by religious nuts as well.
November 15, 2011 at 6:06 am
MisplacedChildhood (11/14/2011)
Ian Elliott (11/7/2011)
I don't want to go out of my way to offend people but it seems that these days people like to go out of their way to be offended as much as possible. If you know a comedian tells blue jokes and you don't like blue jokes then why watch him and them complain about him offending you!This whole PC culture actually offends me, but as long as I don't say anything that may offend someone else then that's fine but if I have a different set of values and not being able to say what I like offends me then no one cares.
Amen Ian & I am offended by religious nuts as well.
As an official religious nut, I hereby give you permission and sanction to be as offended as you like. 😛
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
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