November 18, 2014 at 9:06 am
Ed Wagner (11/18/2014)
Eric M Russell (11/18/2014)
I wonder how many ordinary people superficially maintain a FaceBook page, not for dumping their actual daily life, but just for use as a presentable shill for prospective employers. Is that what the world is coming to; we all have to manage our own personal public relations image campaign like a celebrity or politician?That's a very interesting question. I hope not. Even though some friends laugh at me for it, I don't even have a Facebook profile. I just don't feel the overwhelming need to know what everyone I know is doing all the time.
This is actually starting to be seen as suspect behavior!
November 18, 2014 at 9:07 am
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...My very last sentence:
I'm saying there's no way of predicting and we should stop pretending there is.
As far as risk factors, debt is extremely tenuous, especially pre-existing debt. There is a level at which thinking these correlations are risk factors actively harms your decision making. This is one of those points.
Also, if you prevent people with debt from getting jobs, they'll never be able to pay off that debt, trapping them in a mess that might not even be their fault. (Unexpected medical expenses for example.) Since most people with debt, even high debt, are not people who go on to commit fraud or embezzle, using this as a risk factor is harmful to the company and the individual.
I totally disagree. I agree that it is not a way to predict but it is a risk therefore it should be evaluated and mitigated. Ignoring that risk in certain circustances would be irrisponsible and potentially negligent. It should be evaluated intelligently i.e. by a human once it exceeds a defined threshold.
It may restrict some people who have a level of debt deemed too high from getting some positions and it may limit a company to a smaller pool of resources but that is risk mitigation. That may be unpalatable to some, however, if I was a shareholder of a company that did not perform due diligence on all employees and all company officers to a level of rigour that was appropriate to their role then I would be questioning the companies policies. I would feel the same way as a citizen if it was a government post.
Often this risk is not against fraud anyway but other unsavoury actions such as disclosure of secrets or covering up particular information.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 9:12 am
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...My very last sentence:
I'm saying there's no way of predicting and we should stop pretending there is.
As far as risk factors, debt is extremely tenuous, especially pre-existing debt. There is a level at which thinking these correlations are risk factors actively harms your decision making. This is one of those points.
Also, if you prevent people with debt from getting jobs, they'll never be able to pay off that debt, trapping them in a mess that might not even be their fault. (Unexpected medical expenses for example.) Since most people with debt, even high debt, are not people who go on to commit fraud or embezzle, using this as a risk factor is harmful to the company and the individual.
I totally disagree. I agree that it is not a way to predict but it is a risk therefore it should be evaluated and mitigated. Ignoring that risk in certain circustances would be irrisponsible and potentially negligent. It should be evaluated intelligently i.e. by a human once it exceeds a defined threshold.
It may restrict some people who have a level of debt deemed too high from getting some positions and it may limit a company to a smaller pool of resources but that is risk mitigation. That may be unpalatable to some, however, if I was a shareholder of a company that did not perform due diligence on all employees and all company officers to a level of rigour that was appropriate to their role then I would be questioning the companies policies. I would feel the same way as a citizen if it was a government post.
Often this risk is not against fraud anyway but other unsavoury actions such as disclosure of secrets or covering up particular information.
Companies are far too beholden to shareholders who contribute little to the company. They should be the last thought, not the first.
If you really want to limit risk, watch upper management closely, audit them constantly. They're the ones getting away with murder. Why did most of the big banks/finance companies have to be bailed out? Upper management making decisions that hurt everyone but themselves.
I like how you think having a human check it means it'd be evaluated intelligently. Humans are notoriously bad at such things, letting other prejudices influence them even when they don't know it. If you're using the risk factor to evaluate, you're using it to predict. It is two ways of saying the same thing. It shouldn't be considered at all since you're going to get far more false positives than accurate hits.
If you had a process that told you when your database was corrupt and it was wrong 90% of the time, forcing you to run other checks that took hours, would you continue to use it?
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 18, 2014 at 9:26 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (11/18/2014)
Ed Wagner (11/18/2014)
Eric M Russell (11/18/2014)
I wonder how many ordinary people superficially maintain a FaceBook page, not for dumping their actual daily life, but just for use as a presentable shill for prospective employers. Is that what the world is coming to; we all have to manage our own personal public relations image campaign like a celebrity or politician?That's a very interesting question. I hope not. Even though some friends laugh at me for it, I don't even have a Facebook profile. I just don't feel the overwhelming need to know what everyone I know is doing all the time.
This is actually starting to be seen as suspect behavior!
Maybe, but suspicious to whom:
Direct marketers compiling a list of 10,000,000 folks to send credit card applications to?
Nosy next door neighbors?
So long as I'm not considered "suspicious" by my personal friends, family, law enforcement, or a potential employer; I don't care.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 18, 2014 at 9:33 am
Eric M Russell (11/18/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (11/18/2014)
Ed Wagner (11/18/2014)
Eric M Russell (11/18/2014)
I wonder how many ordinary people superficially maintain a FaceBook page, not for dumping their actual daily life, but just for use as a presentable shill for prospective employers. Is that what the world is coming to; we all have to manage our own personal public relations image campaign like a celebrity or politician?That's a very interesting question. I hope not. Even though some friends laugh at me for it, I don't even have a Facebook profile. I just don't feel the overwhelming need to know what everyone I know is doing all the time.
This is actually starting to be seen as suspect behavior!
Maybe, but suspicious to whom:
Direct marketers compiling a list of 10,000,000 folks to send credit card applications to?
Nosy next door neighbors?
So long as I'm not considered "suspicious" by my personal friends, family, law enforcement, or a potential employer; I don't care.
Apparently employers being suspicious is the takeaway here, although I do remember reading that older folks might seem to get somewhat of a pass on this.
edit: more like potential employers, ie., when you're being evaluated as a hiring prospect.
November 18, 2014 at 9:36 am
First watch this (funny).
CIA's 'Facebook' Program Dramatically Cut Agency's Costs
http://www.theonion.com/video/cias-facebook-program-dramatically-cut-agencys-cos,19753/
But then read this (seriously).
US secretly created 'Cuban Twitter' to stir unrest and undermine government
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/03/us-cuban-twitter-zunzuneo-stir-unrest
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 18, 2014 at 9:36 am
I am surprised no one mentioned Harry Seldon and the Foundation Book Series. Harry created a mathematics that could model human behavior on a large scale (accurately). Asimov's books were about that. Seems like that time may be coming.
November 18, 2014 at 9:40 am
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...Companies are far too beholden to shareholders who contribute little to the company. They should be the last thought, not the first.If you really want to limit risk, watch upper management closely, audit them constantly. They're the ones getting away with murder. Why did most of the big banks/finance companies have to be bailed out? Upper management making decisions that hurt everyone but themselves.
Upper management are supposed to be held to account by shareholders. Shareholders own the company so it is in their interest to do so. They failed. As did the regulators.
I said all roles needed an appropriate level of rigour applied.
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...I like how you think having a human check it means it'd be evaluated intelligently. Humans are notoriously bad at such things, letting other prejudices influence them even when they don't know it. If you're using the risk factor to evaluate, you're using it to predict. It is two ways of saying the same thing. It shouldn't be considered at all since you're going to get far more false positives than accurate hits.
Considering a risk factor is not predicting. It is what project managers have to do every day. They manage risk.
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...If you had a process that told you when your database was corrupt and it was wrong 90% of the time, forcing you to run other checks that took hours, would you continue to use it?
This is is not the same as a risk factor. Risk factor is not a prediction nor a tautology. All it does is indicate that there is a higher chance NOT that it will or has occurred. The process you describe does not say that there is a higher chance of database corruption but that there has been corruption. Not the same.
I believe that modern disk drives use risk factors to warn of rising risk of disk failure not of disk failure.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 9:44 am
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...Companies are far too beholden to shareholders who contribute little to the company. They should be the last thought, not the first.If you really want to limit risk, watch upper management closely, audit them constantly. They're the ones getting away with murder. Why did most of the big banks/finance companies have to be bailed out? Upper management making decisions that hurt everyone but themselves.
Upper management are supposed to be held to account by shareholders. Shareholders own the company so it is in their interest to do so. They failed. As did the regulators.
LOL I'm a bit more cynical about this one, you could see the gigantic bailouts in 2009 or so as being a huge win for many of these financial institutions because they took huge risk with the mortgage derivatives and didn't have to face the obvious downsides of those risks, ie., they got bailed out.
November 18, 2014 at 9:55 am
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...And what's to stop someone from gaining tons of debt after they have the job?...Nothing but that is the same as checking for anything else. It would be remiss, negligent even, not to check in the first instance. Some companies/institutions do checks on a regular basis e.g. annually.
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...And at most that should only apply to people actually managing money. Why run a credit check on a DBA?I think that you are missing the point of the check. It is to vet people that can manipulate fiscal transactions i.e. anyone involved in the processes and data of fiscal transactions. These transactions aren't necessarily banking but can be order based or even payroll based. It isn't event just about creating or hiding such transactions but also about altering them or the records of them.
Fraud isn't always about stealing. Sometimes it is simply covering up.
First off I do with in the financial services field and there was a credit check on *everyone* in our company. That said - there are lots of unfortunate circumstances leaading up to having a bad credit score which don't involve fraud or irresponsible behavior (e.g. healthcare-related bankrupties, loss of a busines, just to name a few): those tend to be ugly areas where a "blind process" oculd essentially ostracize perfectly able people who just had a bad turn of events.
Big data *is* scary. You can make a lot of cold -hearted decisions from the comfort of your couch without ever knowing who gets hurt in the process.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
November 18, 2014 at 9:56 am
This month I started a new job doing database development for a school for the blind and visually impaired: Required: fingerprinting for an FBI criminal record check, TB test, drug test. And even though I won't be driving the kids, I had to complete an online driving course because I'll be assigned a school vehicle and I'll be driving around the state. As far as I know, no social media search, and I've prepared for that eventuality: my normal email address that I use for correspondence with friends and such never appears on my resume, it contains an email address that I use only for applications that links to an archive for a database blog that I had once upon a time. Facebook? I just created a profile for sharing photographs with a group that I shoot with, zero personal info there. And if you search for my name, you'll find a lot of hits for Wayne County, West Virginia. Good luck with that. And my full name is not on my resume, I go by my middle name. They don't know my full name until I do my payroll withholding paperwork.
If HR et al are doing evaluations of people's non-work lives to determine risk factors, then C-levels and all management need to have the same evaluations done and those records need to be disclosed to employees as a condition of their employ. It is unjust for workerbees to be put under a microscope and have their private life invaded if it's not done to management. This should be done doubly-so to appointed and elected government officials. If dubious standards are going to be applied to workers, then as the saying goes, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
I can understand additional scrutiny being applied to DBAs, I've always described it as we hold the keys to the kingdom. But I think it should be an influencing factor, not a deciding factor, because data can easily be flawed. Months ago I tried to apply for new car insurance and found out that three car accidents that my dad had had been conflated with my name: his middle name is my first name. I've been accident-free for 20 years and no tickets in the same amount of time, but if that information were viewed and I was not given an opportunity to explain it, that is plainly unjust. Fortunately my insurance company had not made that same mistake.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
November 18, 2014 at 10:17 am
Mozart died at age 34. Most people would be hard pressed to copy his music in 34 years, but he composed, wrote it out and performed it in his short life. He lived a life of debauchery that would make any insurance agent turn and run, yet I am guessing there is not a music school that would not want to hire a Mozart.
My point - life-style is not the only measure of productivity.
November 18, 2014 at 10:23 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (11/18/2014)
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...Companies are far too beholden to shareholders who contribute little to the company. They should be the last thought, not the first.If you really want to limit risk, watch upper management closely, audit them constantly. They're the ones getting away with murder. Why did most of the big banks/finance companies have to be bailed out? Upper management making decisions that hurt everyone but themselves.
Upper management are supposed to be held to account by shareholders. Shareholders own the company so it is in their interest to do so. They failed. As did the regulators.
LOL I'm a bit more cynical about this one, you could see the gigantic bailouts in 2009 or so as being a huge win for many of these financial institutions because they took huge risk with the mortgage derivatives and didn't have to face the obvious downsides of those risks, ie., they got bailed out.
I think that these "too big to fail" institutions should have been allowed to fail. Government should then have stepped in paying next to nothing for them but guaranteeing savers and deposit investors money (not shareholders of any sort) recovering any losses over time as the value of the financial institutes were regained.
Management fail.
Shareholder fail.
Government fail.
Tax payers bill 🙁
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 11:38 am
Wayne West (11/18/2014)
... It is unjust for workerbees to be put under a microscope and have their private life invaded if it's not done to management. This should be done doubly-so to appointed and elected government officials. ...I can understand additional scrutiny being applied to DBAs, I've always described it as we hold the keys to the kingdom. But I think it should be an influencing factor, not a deciding factor, because data can easily be flawed. ...
Thanks Wayne. Equality in security checks should be automatic for both those who are DBA's and anyone who can get access to the raw data. And if the DBA has this test or that, by example and by standard others up the food chain should as well.
Elected officials submit to a complete background check? You would hear every objection under the sun on this that. But if they are to be given Top Security Clearance should we let them slide by? Not!
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
November 18, 2014 at 11:43 am
Miles Neale (11/18/2014)
Elected officials submit to a complete background check? You would hear every objection under the sun on this that. But if they are to be given Top Security Clearance should we let them slide by? Not!
But obviously if they have nothing to hide.... 😛
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
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