November 18, 2014 at 7:11 am
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
When as we all know there's little correlation. The people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight. And a particular mindset.
I don't know that. I have no idea as to the "particular mindset" or someone committing fraud nor do I know that the "people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight".
Evidence please!!!
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 7:12 am
Perhaps a lighter question, would you be comfortable managing and writing applications that work with employee data and try to analyze, perhaps even strongly recommend, changes in peoples' live? I'm not sure I would, and I certainly hope we don't get to the point where the data about our personal lives directly impacts the way we are managed.
Mining big data for the purpose of gaining insight into individual behaviour and making projections about outcomes is a lot like extracting gold from beach sand.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 18, 2014 at 7:14 am
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
When as we all know there's little correlation. The people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight. And a particular mindset.
I don't know that. I have no idea as to the "particular mindset" or someone committing fraud nor do I know that the "people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight".
Evidence please!!!
I don't understand that mindset either. Then again, I also feel a strong sense of responsibility for the data I'm responsible for. Not everyone shares that mentality.
November 18, 2014 at 7:19 am
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...And what's to stop someone from gaining tons of debt after they have the job?...
Nothing but that is the same as checking for anything else. It would be remiss, negligent even, not to check in the first instance. Some companies/institutions do checks on a regular basis e.g. annually.
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
...And at most that should only apply to people actually managing money. Why run a credit check on a DBA?
I think that you are missing the point of the check. It is to vet people that can manipulate fiscal transactions i.e. anyone involved in the processes and data of fiscal transactions. These transactions aren't necessarily banking but can be order based or even payroll based. It isn't event just about creating or hiding such transactions but also about altering them or the records of them.
Fraud isn't always about stealing. Sometimes it is simply covering up.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 7:23 am
Ed Wagner (11/18/2014)
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
When as we all know there's little correlation. The people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight. And a particular mindset.
I don't know that. I have no idea as to the "particular mindset" or someone committing fraud nor do I know that the "people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight".
Evidence please!!!
I don't understand that mindset either. Then again, I also feel a strong sense of responsibility for the data I'm responsible for. Not everyone shares that mentality.
Most of us do Ed but my point is what is this mysterious "mindset"? If we know of it then we can define it. I'd like to see this definition.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 7:31 am
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
Why run a credit check on a DBA?
Sysadmin access to a server that processes millions of dollars of transactions a day... (what I had when I worked at the bank)
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
November 18, 2014 at 7:34 am
It's hard enough for employers to find competent candidates for the right price. Add on top of that some directive from HR to screen candidates based on their healthy habits and cultural fit, and then the search becomes near impossible. I could easily imagine a department manager choosing to overlook some questionable background information about a candidate that he feels isn't relevent, just to fill the position with whomever he thinks is the right fit for the job.
Would a 20 pound overweight DBA who posts links to the "The Onion" on this FaceBook page really cost the company more, or perform less, than a skinny DBA who volunteers for socially responsible causes?
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 18, 2014 at 7:52 am
Eric M Russell (11/18/2014)
It's hard enough for employers to find competent candidates for the right price. Add on top of that some directive from HR to screen candidates based on their healthy habits and cultural fit, and then the search becomes near impossible. I could easily imagine a department manager choosing to overlook some questionable background information about a candidate that he feels isn't relevent, just to fill the position with whomever he thinks is the right fit for the job.Would a 20 pound overweight DBA who posts links to the "The Onion" on this FaceBook page really cost the company more, or perform less, than a skinny DBA who volunteers for socially responsible causes?
Does the overweight Onionator have a drivers license? If so, he's in!
Seriously though, this is correct as these are parts of an overall picture a manager looks at when hiring. At least, one would hope.
November 18, 2014 at 7:59 am
All your data are belong to us.
You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile...
:hehe:
Hakim Ali
www.sqlzen.com
November 18, 2014 at 8:27 am
I wonder how many ordinary people superficially maintain a FaceBook page, not for dumping their actual daily life, but just for use as a presentable shill for prospective employers. Is that what the world is coming to; we all have to manage our own personal public relations image campaign like a celebrity or politician?
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 18, 2014 at 8:35 am
Eric M Russell (11/18/2014)
I wonder how many ordinary people superficially maintain a FaceBook page, not for dumping their actual daily life, but just for use as a presentable shill for prospective employers. Is that what the world is coming to; we all have to manage our own personal public relations image campaign like a celebrity or politician?
That's a very interesting question. I hope not. Even though some friends laugh at me for it, I don't even have a Facebook profile. I just don't feel the overwhelming need to know what everyone I know is doing all the time.
November 18, 2014 at 8:37 am
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
When as we all know there's little correlation. The people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight. And a particular mindset.
I don't know that. I have no idea as to the "particular mindset" or someone committing fraud nor do I know that the "people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight".
Evidence please!!!
I didn't say you knew those things. I said we know there's little correlation between theft and debt. Go look at who gets caught for embezzlement. There's no link. Some have debt, others don't. What they do have in common is opportunity and intent. The particular mindset of someone committing fraud or embezzlement is a willingness to commit fraud or embezzlement. Lots of people in the same situation don't do it. I'm not saying these things are predictive, I'm saying there's no way of predicting and we should stop pretending there is.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 18, 2014 at 8:49 am
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
When as we all know there's little correlation. The people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight. And a particular mindset.
I don't know that. I have no idea as to the "particular mindset" or someone committing fraud nor do I know that the "people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight".
Evidence please!!!
I didn't say you knew those things. I said we know there's little correlation between theft and debt. Go look at who gets caught for embezzlement. There's no link. Some have debt, others don't. What they do have in common is opportunity and intent. The particular mindset of someone committing fraud or embezzlement is a willingness to commit fraud or embezzlement. Lots of people in the same situation don't do it. I'm not saying these things are predictive, I'm saying there's no way of predicting and we should stop pretending there is.
OK. I see where you are coming from, however, I don't think that "we know there's little correlation between theft and debt". I agree that it isn't always the driver but it has been shown to be a risk factor. If the mindset is literally the willingness to perform an action then that does suggest that as long as we cannot detect that then "there's no way of predicting" anyone doing it. That is fair enough.
I think the key distinction is that you appear to be using these as predictors as opposed to risk factors. The existence of a risk factor does not indicate anything but an increased statistical likelihood. It is not a tautology.
In some cases the increased risk is unacceptable.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 8:52 am
Ed Wagner (11/18/2014)
Eric M Russell (11/18/2014)
I wonder how many ordinary people superficially maintain a FaceBook page, not for dumping their actual daily life, but just for use as a presentable shill for prospective employers. Is that what the world is coming to; we all have to manage our own personal public relations image campaign like a celebrity or politician?That's a very interesting question. I hope not. Even though some friends laugh at me for it, I don't even have a Facebook profile. I just don't feel the overwhelming need to know what everyone I know is doing all the time.
I'm sure that for $10 a month we could outsource a social media savvy type to build up our FaceBook presence and keep it updated daily with politically correct posts, inspirational quotes, and photos from cool places we only wish we could visit. But like you said, not having a FaceBook page is a valid approach too. I think I'll stick with that.
:satisfied:
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 18, 2014 at 8:55 am
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
Gary Varga (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
When as we all know there's little correlation. The people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight. And a particular mindset.
I don't know that. I have no idea as to the "particular mindset" or someone committing fraud nor do I know that the "people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight".
Evidence please!!!
I didn't say you knew those things. I said we know there's little correlation between theft and debt. Go look at who gets caught for embezzlement. There's no link. Some have debt, others don't. What they do have in common is opportunity and intent. The particular mindset of someone committing fraud or embezzlement is a willingness to commit fraud or embezzlement. Lots of people in the same situation don't do it. I'm not saying these things are predictive, I'm saying there's no way of predicting and we should stop pretending there is.
OK. I see where you are coming from, however, I don't think that "we know there's little correlation between theft and debt". I agree that it isn't always the driver but it has been shown to be a risk factor. If the mindset is literally the willingness to perform an action then that does suggest that as long as we cannot detect that then "there's no way of predicting" anyone doing it. That is fair enough.
I think the key distinction is that you appear to be using these as predictors as opposed to risk factors. The existence of a risk factor does not indicate anything but an increased statistical likelihood. It is not a tautology.
In some cases the increased risk is unacceptable.
My very last sentence:
I'm saying there's no way of predicting and we should stop pretending there is.
As far as risk factors, debt is extremely tenuous, especially pre-existing debt. There is a level at which thinking these correlations are risk factors actively harms your decision making. This is one of those points.
Also, if you prevent people with debt from getting jobs, they'll never be able to pay off that debt, trapping them in a mess that might not even be their fault. (Unexpected medical expenses for example.) Since most people with debt, even high debt, are not people who go on to commit fraud or embezzle, using this as a risk factor is harmful to the company and the individual.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
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