May 1, 2013 at 9:23 am
Jim Youmans-439383 (4/30/2013)
First of all, I love the discussion! And I agree with both sides.If I need a miracle worker, someone who is a GOD at what he does to pull my hide out of the fire, then I don't care how nice he is (well, I do, but I over look it). As long as he can do what I need done, awesome. I will hide him in the back room away from the common folk, and let him work.
This is the exception, not the rule.
Part of the daily grind for a DBA, in my experience, is dealing with frustrated people. You have to have excellent technical skills to find and fix the issues and you have to deal with the users and clients having the issues. I have seen a client (who was paying us a lot of money to mind his data) almost pull the contract over the way a DBA treated one of his people. The client called the OnCall DBA at 2 am with a permission issue, he could not log in. Turns out he was trying to log into the wrong server, honest mistake but frustrating, but the DBA tore into him for 15 minutes on how his stupidity was unforgivable ending the call with a string of profanity.
That is why I think that people skills are very, very important. Each situation is different and there is a place for the Sheldon Coopers of the world, but it is not client facing.
Jim
Yikes. I don't think that is what this is referring to though. That is inappropriate behavior, and not relevant to people skills. An individual that loses control like that may very well have excellent people skills and just hit one too many straws that day. They also may have zero people skills. But a loss of control cannot be correlated to people skills.
Dave
May 1, 2013 at 9:24 am
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
umailedit (4/30/2013)
Let me take the contrary view here.Hypothetical Question: You are about to have a brain aneurysm operated on. Who would you pick?
1) A brain surgeon with little less technical skills but who you can get along with nicely.
2) The brain surgeon who is a genius who has a 100% success rate and is the most arrogant prick you have ever met.
If the surgeon in point 2 was regularly pissing off the rest of the team, especially to the extent they weren't concentrating properly on their jobs, I'll take number one, please. As with most things, surgery involves teamwork, and teamwork involves people getting on together. Very few jobs exist that aren't a compromise of technical skill and people skills.
I have a sister that was a RN nurse so I can speak from her experience here. If they were operating on my shoulder I might agree with you, but one of the most important organs in my body!!!! I'm sorry, but I will take expertise here everytime. I don't want a real nice guy in that operating room bringing his B or C game game, I don't care how nice he is. I want the guy that knows what he is doing and bring his A+ game with all his knowledge, period. Most oparting room staff leave that personality crap at the oparting room door anyway, particularly when it involves someone's life and the hospital and them personally can be held liable. My sister you used to tell me all the time when I was younger when she would come home from work complaining about a certain doctor on her floor "But you know, that doctor is a prick, but if I was in this hospital I would want him taking care of me." 😀
...except that the original question talked about someone with a little less technical skill. Let's not fall into the trap of polarising again.
It wasn't really Travis who used the singularily and absolutely worst example to work with during this discussion. Maybe you didn't pick it either but in my opinion, your reply offers a viewpoint that I wouldn't share in a million years, especially if my life depended on it!
May 1, 2013 at 9:25 am
Exactly djackson, they are two totally different things. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 1, 2013 at 9:35 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/1/2013)
....It wasn't really Travis who used the singularily and absolutely worst example to work with during this discussion.
No, you're right. He didn't. And it probably wasn't my best example of quoting either.
...in my opinion, your reply offers a viewpoint that I wouldn't share in a million years, especially if my life depended on it!
Fair enough. It's a good discussion, but not all discussions end in agreement.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
May 1, 2013 at 9:38 am
umailedit (4/30/2013)
Let me take the contrary view here.Hypothetical Question: You are about to have a brain aneurysm operated on. Who would you pick?
1) A brain surgeon with little less technical skills but who you can get along with nicely.
2) The brain surgeon who is a genius who has a 100% success rate and is the most arrogant prick you have ever met.
Ooh, ooh, can I answer that?
I want #2.
I want all those social niceties obsessing type people to get #1. They deserve the nicest brain surgeon they can get!
Dave
May 1, 2013 at 9:42 am
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
I'm not polarizing I'm simply bring up another viewpoint here. You point is taken, I want the best team in there too, but I am still concerned about the ONE brilliant (or not so brilliant) guy/gal in that room that has the scalpel in his hand sticking into my head! I'm not concerned about whether he/she is a nice person at that time of my life if you know what I mean. 😀
I for one have been there and done that. I wanted the best. His skill was exemplary and his bedside skills with the patient were not so hot. The operation went perfect and the result was outstanding. He did not visit me after the operation and I have not seen him since that morning. He is not a people person, he is a skilled surgeon.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
May 1, 2013 at 9:46 am
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
umailedit (4/30/2013)
Let me take the contrary view here.Hypothetical Question: You are about to have a brain aneurysm operated on. Who would you pick?
1) A brain surgeon with little less technical skills but who you can get along with nicely.
2) The brain surgeon who is a genius who has a 100% success rate and is the most arrogant prick you have ever met.
If the surgeon in point 2 was regularly pissing off the rest of the team, especially to the extent they weren't concentrating properly on their jobs, I'll take number one, please. As with most things, surgery involves teamwork, and teamwork involves people getting on together. Very few jobs exist that aren't a compromise of technical skill and people skills.
I have a sister that was a RN nurse so I can speak from her experience here. If they were operating on my shoulder I might (enphasizing the word MIGHT) agree with you, but one of the most important organs in my body!!!! I'm sorry, but I will take expertise (Point#2) here everytime. I don't want a real nice guy in that operating room bringing his B or C game. I don't care how nice he is. I want the guy that knows his stuff and what he is doing and bringing his A+ game with all his knowledge, period. Most operating room staff leave that personality crap at the operating room door anyway. Particularly, when it involves someone's life. The hospital and them can be held liable if they let stuff like that affect an patient outcome. My sister used to tell me all the time when I was younger when she would come home from work complaining about a certain doctor on her floor "But you know, although that doctor is a 14-carat gold prick, if I was in this hospital I would want him taking care of me.". That pretty much says it all... 😀
I can go much further than that. Nice, quiet, unassumming surgeons with excellent people skills and the patience of a saint don't exist. OR nurses learn very quickly how to do their jobs, what each surgeon wants and how to do it. If not, they don't work in the OR very long at all!
There is a difference between treating people poorly for no good reason (not a good doctor), and setting standards for performance and demanding a competent person to replace the one that can't perform. There is nothing mean about telling an incompetent nurse to get the xxxx out of the OR! Great surgeons tend towards having limited patience. Why? Because surgeons who are too patient kill people, and don't practice very long.
"Oh nurse, would you please take a moment, when you are done discussing your daughter's cheerleading skills of course, to hand me that clamp so I can stop this guy from bleeding out? Only if it pleases you though, I know how important cheerleading is to you..."
Dave
May 1, 2013 at 9:54 am
Miles Neale (5/1/2013)
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
I'm not polarizing I'm simply bring up another viewpoint here. You point is taken, I want the best team in there too, but I am still concerned about the ONE brilliant (or not so brilliant) guy/gal in that room that has the scalpel in his hand sticking into my head! I'm not concerned about whether he/she is a nice person at that time of my life if you know what I mean. 😀
I for one have been there and done that. I wanted the best. His skill was exemplary and his bedside skills with the patient were not so hot. The operation went perfect and the result was outstanding. He did not visit me after the operation and I have not seen him since that morning. He is not a people person, he is a skilled surgeon.
I had a similar experience, and I absolutely refuse to say anything about the surgeon except he is outstanding at what he does, he and my primary care physician disagree on some things, he knew when to read me the riot act, and I have him to thank for where I am today. If someone asks me for the best doctor in his field, he is number one on that list.
Dave
May 1, 2013 at 11:13 am
djackson 22568 (5/1/2013)
I can go much further than that. Nice, quiet, unassumming surgeons with excellent people skills and the patience of a saint don't exist. OR nurses learn very quickly how to do their jobs, what each surgeon wants and how to do it. If not, they don't work in the OR very long at all!There is a difference between treating people poorly for no good reason (not a good doctor), and setting standards for performance and demanding a competent person to replace the one that can't perform. There is nothing mean about telling an incompetent nurse to get the xxxx out of the OR! Great surgeons tend towards having limited patience. Why? Because surgeons who are too patient kill people, and don't practice very long.
"Oh nurse, would you please take a moment, when you are done discussing your daughter's cheerleading skills of course, to hand me that clamp so I can stop this guy from bleeding out? Only if it pleases you though, I know how important cheerleading is to you..."
I could not have said this any better and the only thing I will add is I do not have any compunction at all of telling people who are attempting to compromise the production databases under my control and responsibility the exact same thing. Tough s**t if they don't like it or the way I said it either. It's not personal, it's business. It's not their job on the line that will be ultimately standing in the Director or CEO's office explaining why a multi-million dollar production database is down or locked up. It's mine. The buck stops with me because I'm the gatekeeper. I watch the perimeter of my database servers at all times. Bottom line, that is what I get paid well to do. Not win personality contests. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 2, 2013 at 6:47 am
People skills do not have to mean being a good socializer and spending a lot of time chatting.
To me People Skills are being able to work effectively with people to get the desired results. This includes different cultures.
Some people I work with like to spend 5 minutes at the beginning of the meeting asking how I am, etc. Some like to just get down to business.
Being able to work effectively with all different people types and not be thought of as rude or arrogant is having People Skills.
May 2, 2013 at 7:02 am
joe.eager (5/2/2013)
People skills do not have to mean being a good socializer and spending a lot of time chatting.To me People Skills are being able to work effectively with people to get the desired results. This includes different cultures.
Some people I work with like to spend 5 minutes at the beginning of the meeting asking how I am, etc. Some like to just get down to business.
Being able to work effectively with all different people types and not be thought of as rude or arrogant is having People Skills.
My thoughts, exactly.
Technical skills come much easier to me than people skills. That's something I've had to working on learning. But learning people skills doesn't mean I've become Miss Chatty Cathy nor does it mean I don't value my technical skills.
May 2, 2013 at 7:45 am
joe.eager (5/2/2013)
People skills do not have to mean being a good socializer and spending a lot of time chatting.
Joe,
I don't think most of us are saying that at all. People tend to confuse statements like "No, you cannot do that on the database.." as being uncooperative and not having people skills, and they are two different things. This is not Burger King, you cannot get it your way all the time. That is a part of being a DBA. We have to enforce rules and perimeters. It's part of our job, whether people like it or not, and usually they don't . However, as a result of this, people tend to confuse not getting their way alot with the other person not having "people skills". 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 2, 2013 at 7:52 am
TravisDBA (5/2/2013)
joe.eager (5/2/2013)
People skills do not have to mean being a good socializer and spending a lot of time chatting.Joe,
I don't think most of us are saying that at all. People tend to confuse statements like "No, you cannot do that on the database.." as being uncooperative and not having people skills, and they are two different things. This is not Burger King, you cannot get it your way all the time. That is a part of being a DBA. We have to enforce rules and perimeters. It's part of our job, whether people like it or not, and usually they don't . However, as a result of this, people tend to confuse not getting their way alot with the other person not having "people skills". 😀
I agree that some people can take it that way. For those people I would probably approach it like "That's not possible, due to <insert justifications>. "
I've found that if people are given explanations at a level they understand they tend not to view us as uncooperative. Granted there are always those that will be babies about not getting their way but a tailored message seems to work wonders on many people. It's like I prefer a handwritten christmas card over a boiler plate one.
May 2, 2013 at 9:16 am
joe.eager (5/2/2013)
TravisDBA (5/2/2013)
joe.eager (5/2/2013)
People skills do not have to mean being a good socializer and spending a lot of time chatting.Joe,
I don't think most of us are saying that at all. People tend to confuse statements like "No, you cannot do that on the database.." as being uncooperative and not having people skills, and they are two different things. This is not Burger King, you cannot get it your way all the time. That is a part of being a DBA. We have to enforce rules and perimeters. It's part of our job, whether people like it or not, and usually they don't . However, as a result of this, people tend to confuse not getting their way alot with the other person not having "people skills". 😀
I agree that some people can take it that way. For those people I would probably approach it like "That's not possible, due to <insert justifications>. "
I've found that if people are given explanations at a level they understand they tend not to view us as uncooperative. Granted there are always those that will be babies about not getting their way but a tailored message seems to work wonders on many people. It's like I prefer a handwritten christmas card over a boiler plate one.
I agree, sometimes I can give the written Christmas card explanation, but don't expect this of me everytime because many times I simply dont have the time to personally explain everything to people at an elementary grade lower-level they might or might not understand anyway. It's not a matter of manners as much as it is simply a matter of other priorities at the time. Also, it is not my job to teach people database basics or T-SQL either. That is not what I was hired for, so any explanation they get is optional on my part anyway. At least according to my boss anyway..:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 2, 2013 at 11:59 am
David.Poole (4/30/2013)
Thanks Jeff,I recommend reading two books by Max Eggert on interviews and CVs. They were brilliant, succinct and (lets not deny it) inexpensive.
One of them said there are only really 3 questions in an interview
- Can they do the job
- Will they do the job
- Will they fit in
There are lessons in them for both the interviewer and the interviewee.
Jim is absolutely right. Not everyone is comfortable with "people skills" but at some point you are going to need them.
I would also recommend taking a course on giving presentations. There is a lot to learn in giving presentations that can be applied outside of the presentation arena
- Understanding and identifying your audience
- Tips and tricks to make your key points memorable
- Body language, how to use it to communicate confidence and trustworthyness and how to take control of a situation
- How to avoid "Death by Powerpoint"
+1
All very good points and very good information
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 68 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply