April 30, 2013 at 12:03 pm
First of all, I love the discussion! And I agree with both sides.
If I need a miracle worker, someone who is a GOD at what he does to pull my hide out of the fire, then I don't care how nice he is (well, I do, but I over look it). As long as he can do what I need done, awesome. I will hide him in the back room away from the common folk, and let him work.
This is the exception, not the rule.
Part of the daily grind for a DBA, in my experience, is dealing with frustrated people. You have to have excellent technical skills to find and fix the issues and you have to deal with the users and clients having the issues. I have seen a client (who was paying us a lot of money to mind his data) almost pull the contract over the way a DBA treated one of his people. The client called the OnCall DBA at 2 am with a permission issue, he could not log in. Turns out he was trying to log into the wrong server, honest mistake but frustrating, but the DBA tore into him for 15 minutes on how his stupidity was unforgivable ending the call with a string of profanity.
That is why I think that people skills are very, very important. Each situation is different and there is a place for the Sheldon Coopers of the world, but it is not client facing.
Jim
April 30, 2013 at 12:05 pm
That's an interesting point. How many times in your career have you dealt with truly challenging technical issues and how many times have you dealt with truly challenging people?
April 30, 2013 at 12:07 pm
I think the communications skills versus technical skills and apples to oranges comparison. It's why I separated out the differences.
I've come across hundreds of 'DBA' whom I do not consider a 'DBA' and more like a 'SQL Developer' or a 'Jr. DBA' and that is a matter of technical knowledge, a lot of people know a lot of very specific things about writing T-SQL, etc. However, time and time again, they can not solve problems no matter how much of a people person they are, and no matter how much about SQL though know either. I think databases are unique in that unlike the Cisco guy who only needs to know enough about servers to setup networking configurations or the SAN guy who only needs to know about disk performance and protocol performance, or the developer who only needs to know how to code. The databases administrator needs to know Programming Frameworks and Programming Language Architecture, Basic Programming, SANs, Networks, Protocols, Servers, etc. Who's going to catch the environmental problem of connection string fragmentation? The DBA. Who's going to catch the web pages that 'accidently call for an image 3 times instead of just once?' that QA let slip by? The DBA. If you're running EMC SANs and not paying for all the additional software packages for monitoring, who's going to catch the disk contention? The DBA. Even when it is a database issue, let's say you have some queries timing out? Sometimes it's not the query or the indexes, sometimes it's the system configuration, ever check the sys.configurations? Do you know how to calculate throughput of your disks and your network? All those CX_Packet waits? Did the guy who setup the system leave hyper-threading? on because setting MAXDOP=1 isn't the best solution. This is on top of the database platform specific knowledge that you need to be a master of.
Now this is the minimum. The requirements, the skills required. The most important 'Skill' is a technical/gear head jack of all trades. You are not a DBA until you are in my book.
Then comes the soft skills. To be a great DBA to be able to do all this and explain it to management and end-users in a way that makes them happy. To be invited into the C level meetings as a representative of your CTO explaining how you have a 99.999% uptime, have not last a single second of data, and your thru-put per dollar is the best in the industry, and where your competitors were all compromised, your systems were not and if marketing wants to leverage that information have at it. Now, you went from being a DBA to a great DBA.
April 30, 2013 at 12:20 pm
Jim Youmans-439383 (4/30/2013)
Part of the daily grind for a DBA, in my experience, is dealing with frustrated people. You have to have excellent technical skills to find and fix the issues and you have to deal with the users and clients having the issues. I have seen a client (who was paying us a lot of money to mind his data) almost pull the contract over the way a DBA treated one of his people. The client called the OnCall DBA at 2 am with a permission issue, he could not log in. Turns out he was trying to log into the wrong server, honest mistake but frustrating, but the DBA tore into him for 15 minutes on how his stupidity was unforgivable ending the call with a string of profanity.That is why I think that people skills are very, very important. Each situation is different and there is a place for the Sheldon Coopers of the world, but it is not client facing.
Jim
I absolutely agree Jim, there is no excuse for being outright offensive and rude to others, in any context, However, as I and others have said before please don't confuse this example of rude and offensive behavior with a DBA not letting others do what they want whenever they want. It is our job to guard the gate to the enterprises precious data. We have to set up perimeters. So, don't get pissed off because we don't drop everything and do what you want everytime. People tend to confuse these two behaviors many times as the same thing (Sheldon Cooper Syndrome) and they are definitely not. One is just bad or arrogant behavior while the other is just doing our job. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
April 30, 2013 at 2:58 pm
TravisDBA (4/30/2013)
Jim Youmans-439383 (4/30/2013)
Part of the daily grind for a DBA, in my experience, is dealing with frustrated people. You have to have excellent technical skills to find and fix the issues and you have to deal with the users and clients having the issues. I have seen a client (who was paying us a lot of money to mind his data) almost pull the contract over the way a DBA treated one of his people. The client called the OnCall DBA at 2 am with a permission issue, he could not log in. Turns out he was trying to log into the wrong server, honest mistake but frustrating, but the DBA tore into him for 15 minutes on how his stupidity was unforgivable ending the call with a string of profanity.That is why I think that people skills are very, very important. Each situation is different and there is a place for the Sheldon Coopers of the world, but it is not client facing.
Jim
I absolutely agree Jim, there is no excuse for being outright offensive and rude to others, in any context, However, as I and others have said before please don't confuse this example of rude and offensive behavior with a DBA not letting others do what they want whenever they want. It is our job to guard the gate to the enterprises precious data. We have to set up perimeters. So, don't get pissed off because we don't drop everything and do what you want everytime. People tend to confuse these two behaviors many times as the same thing (Sheldon Cooper Syndrome) and they are definitely not. One is just bad or arrogant behavior while the other is just doing our job. 😀
+1,000,000!!!
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
April 30, 2013 at 5:34 pm
During my interview, I told them I do not ever want to manage people. I can do team management for short term projects or play mentor, but don't expect me to write reviews and do all the personnel stuff. That isn't my skill set or aim. I am working on a support desk. I'm the level III guy. They realized quickly that I don't do well with stupid people. I can handle some ignorance if the end-user is trying to learn, but so many of our end-users I want to tell "You're too stupid to use a computer." So my boss set it up that I talk to our support people or the IT guys at the customers. They then contact to the end-users.
My management realizes that I do the best job by not having to pussy-foot with the customer.
I'm not the Sheldon level anti-social, but more of the Leonard level geek, with a little less tolerance.
But if I came into interview for a position that they were throwing psych tests at me -- I question whether I would even really want the job. I'm coming to the company because I want to work, not socialize.
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
April 30, 2013 at 11:58 pm
Let me take the contrary view here.
Hypothetical Question: You are about to have a brain aneurysm operated on. Who would you pick?
1) A brain surgeon with little less technical skills but who you can get along with nicely.
2) The brain surgeon who is a genius who has a 100% success rate and is the most arrogant prick you have ever met.
May 1, 2013 at 2:40 am
Jeff Moden (4/30/2013)
TravisDBA (4/30/2013)
Jim Youmans-439383 (4/30/2013)
Part of the daily grind for a DBA, in my experience, is dealing with frustrated people. You have to have excellent technical skills to find and fix the issues and you have to deal with the users and clients having the issues. I have seen a client (who was paying us a lot of money to mind his data) almost pull the contract over the way a DBA treated one of his people. The client called the OnCall DBA at 2 am with a permission issue, he could not log in. Turns out he was trying to log into the wrong server, honest mistake but frustrating, but the DBA tore into him for 15 minutes on how his stupidity was unforgivable ending the call with a string of profanity.That is why I think that people skills are very, very important. Each situation is different and there is a place for the Sheldon Coopers of the world, but it is not client facing.
Jim
I absolutely agree Jim, there is no excuse for being outright offensive and rude to others, in any context, However, as I and others have said before please don't confuse this example of rude and offensive behavior with a DBA not letting others do what they want whenever they want. It is our job to guard the gate to the enterprises precious data. We have to set up perimeters. So, don't get pissed off because we don't drop everything and do what you want everytime. People tend to confuse these two behaviors many times as the same thing (Sheldon Cooper Syndrome) and they are definitely not. One is just bad or arrogant behavior while the other is just doing our job. 😀
+1,000,000!!!
Me too.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
May 1, 2013 at 2:43 am
umailedit (4/30/2013)
Let me take the contrary view here.Hypothetical Question: You are about to have a brain aneurysm operated on. Who would you pick?
1) A brain surgeon with little less technical skills but who you can get along with nicely.
2) The brain surgeon who is a genius who has a 100% success rate and is the most arrogant prick you have ever met.
If the surgeon in point 2 was regularly pissing off the rest of the team, especially to the extent they weren't concentrating properly on their jobs, I'll take number one, please. As with most things, surgery involves teamwork, and teamwork involves people getting on together. Very few jobs exist that aren't a compromise of technical skill and people skills.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
May 1, 2013 at 8:51 am
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
umailedit (4/30/2013)
Let me take the contrary view here.Hypothetical Question: You are about to have a brain aneurysm operated on. Who would you pick?
1) A brain surgeon with little less technical skills but who you can get along with nicely.
2) The brain surgeon who is a genius who has a 100% success rate and is the most arrogant prick you have ever met.
If the surgeon in point 2 was regularly pissing off the rest of the team, especially to the extent they weren't concentrating properly on their jobs, I'll take number one, please. As with most things, surgery involves teamwork, and teamwork involves people getting on together. Very few jobs exist that aren't a compromise of technical skill and people skills.
I have a sister that was a RN nurse so I can speak from her experience here. If they were operating on my shoulder I might (enphasizing the word MIGHT) agree with you, but one of the most important organs in my body!!!! I'm sorry, but I will take expertise (Point#2) here everytime. I don't want a real nice guy in that operating room bringing his B or C game. I don't care how nice he is. I want the guy that knows his stuff and what he is doing and bringing his A+ game with all his knowledge, period. Most operating room staff leave that personality crap at the operating room door anyway. Particularly, when it involves someone's life. The hospital and them can be held liable if they let stuff like that affect an patient outcome. My sister used to tell me all the time when I was younger when she would come home from work complaining about a certain doctor on her floor "But you know, although that doctor is a 14-carat gold prick, if I was in this hospital I would want him taking care of me.". That pretty much says it all... 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 1, 2013 at 9:04 am
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
umailedit (4/30/2013)
Let me take the contrary view here.Hypothetical Question: You are about to have a brain aneurysm operated on. Who would you pick?
1) A brain surgeon with little less technical skills but who you can get along with nicely.
2) The brain surgeon who is a genius who has a 100% success rate and is the most arrogant prick you have ever met.
If the surgeon in point 2 was regularly pissing off the rest of the team, especially to the extent they weren't concentrating properly on their jobs, I'll take number one, please. As with most things, surgery involves teamwork, and teamwork involves people getting on together. Very few jobs exist that aren't a compromise of technical skill and people skills.
I have a sister that was a RN nurse so I can speak from her experience here. If they were operating on my shoulder I might agree with you, but one of the most important organs in my body!!!! I'm sorry, but I will take expertise here everytime. I don't want a real nice guy in that operating room bringing his B or C game game, I don't care how nice he is. I want the guy that knows what he is doing and bring his A+ game with all his knowledge, period. Most oparting room staff leave that personality crap at the oparting room door anyway, particularly when it involves someone's life and the hospital and them personally can be held liable. My sister you used to tell me all the time when I was younger when she would come home from work complaining about a certain doctor on her floor "But you know, that doctor is a prick, but if I was in this hospital I would want him taking care of me." 😀
...except that the original question talked about someone with a little less technical skill. Let's not fall into the trap of polarising again.
My point is that if I'm being operated on, I don't want one brilliant person; I want the best team performance possible. If one person's performance, despite personality problems, is good enough to drag the team average upwards, I'm all for it. However, I don't care how good they are if their related faults bring the overall team capabilities down. We can argue around and around all we like, but eventually what I want is the best overall result, and that means not just focussing on one person.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
May 1, 2013 at 9:13 am
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
umailedit (4/30/2013)
Let me take the contrary view here.Hypothetical Question: You are about to have a brain aneurysm operated on. Who would you pick?
1) A brain surgeon with little less technical skills but who you can get along with nicely.
2) The brain surgeon who is a genius who has a 100% success rate and is the most arrogant prick you have ever met.
If the surgeon in point 2 was regularly pissing off the rest of the team, especially to the extent they weren't concentrating properly on their jobs, I'll take number one, please. As with most things, surgery involves teamwork, and teamwork involves people getting on together. Very few jobs exist that aren't a compromise of technical skill and people skills.
I have a sister that was a RN nurse so I can speak from her experience here. If they were operating on my shoulder I might (enphasizing the word MIGHT) agree with you, but one of the most important organs in my body!!!! I'm sorry, but I will take expertise (Point#2) here everytime. I don't want a real nice guy in that operating room bringing his B or C game. I don't care how nice he is. I want the guy that knows his stuff and what he is doing and bringing his A+ game with all his knowledge, period. Most operating room staff leave that personality crap at the operating room door anyway. Particularly, when it involves someone's life. The hospital and them can be held liable if they let stuff like that affect an patient outcome. My sister used to tell me all the time when I was younger when she would come home from work complaining about a certain doctor on her floor "But you know, although that doctor is a 14-carat gold prick, if I was in this hospital I would want him taking care of me.". That pretty much says it all... 😀
I'd like to wholeheartedly agree on this one!
People skills ARE very important in the operating room. If the lead surgeon is not expecting exact pefection from everyone on his team, if he is not riding his team unflinchingly like the strictest marine drill instructor possible, if he does not absolutely and thunderously berate the perpetrator of even the most seemingly minor mistake possible, then he doesn't have the people skills needed for his job.
I would expect nothing less, HOWEVER once a surgeon is in a position to lead his team during some of the most intricate and demanding work there is, you can bet that he has the people skills required of him and this particular part of his skillset is probably receiving the LEAST of his attention during his workday, and the people that work with him will in all likelyhood not test his "people skills" in the slightest, because their work is truly life and death, and unlike some of the computer folk I have occasionally run into during my career, these are grownups who show up for work.
Now sure we may get accidental DBA's, folks thrown into database tasks relatively unprepared and subsequently end up here asking seemingly simple questions who we hopefully help out with grace and good humor, heck chances are, we even have DBAs who haven't even pulled down college degrees related to their work.
But lets get real here, a lead surgeon isn't a lead surgeon because he unexpectedly got handed some responsibilities he wasn't immediately prepared to do, a lead surgeon has done large amounts of coursework, internship, residency, specialization, and he probably doesn't have to worry that he is pissing anybody off, because at this level of endeavour, people who would somehow get pissed off at any perceived breach of manners during a life saving operation, probably ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO PARTICIPATE IN life saving operations.
May 1, 2013 at 9:20 am
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
umailedit (4/30/2013)
My point is that if I'm being operated on, I don't want one brilliant person; I want the best team performance possible. If one person's performance, despite personality problems, is good enough to drag the team average upwards, I'm all for it. However, I don't care how good they are if their related faults bring the overall team capabilities down. We can argue around and around all we like, but eventually what I want is the best overall result, and that means not just focussing on one person.
I'm not polarizing I'm simply bring up another viewpoint here. You point is taken, I want the best team in there too, but I am still concerned about the ONE brilliant (or not so brilliant) guy/gal in that room that has the scalpel in his hand sticking into my head! I'm not concerned about whether he/she is a nice person at that time of my life if you know what I mean. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 1, 2013 at 9:22 am
It's sometimes easy to forget that professionally speaking, people skills aren't about being "nice"; they're about influencing to get a result. Patrick's post is a rather good reminder of this, I think. Thanks, Patrick.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
May 1, 2013 at 9:23 am
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
TravisDBA (5/1/2013)
majorbloodnock (5/1/2013)
umailedit (4/30/2013)
My point is that if I'm being operated on, I don't want one brilliant person; I want the best team performance possible. If one person's performance, despite personality problems, is good enough to drag the team average upwards, I'm all for it. However, I don't care how good they are if their related faults bring the overall team capabilities down. We can argue around and around all we like, but eventually what I want is the best overall result, and that means not just focussing on one person.I'm not polarizing I'm simply bring up another viewpoint here. You point is taken, I want the best team in there too, but I am still concerned about the ONE brilliant (or not so brilliant) guy/gal in that room that has the scalpel in his hand sticking into my head! I'm not concerned about whether he/she is a nice person at that time of my life if you know what I mean. 😀
Understood, and point taken.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
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