September 22, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Mistake or #Fail
September 22, 2009 at 11:39 pm
my 2c on why this is happening...
It became simply too easy to ask something on a forum, or search it on google.
Welcome to the New Generation of IT.
If you can generate a decent Google search query, then you can do ANY Job in IT 🙂
September 23, 2009 at 3:10 am
It is true - I just set up a MOSS server without knowing what I was doing, I still don't really understand conceptually what is happening but as soon as I got an error I jumped on Google and solved it.
As to not being able to script file manipulations - guilty. Is that relevant any more? If I have information that is so damned important it needs to be in a database I put it in a database. Gone are the days when an app would dump a .csv file out to be picked up, I just throw a line into whatever database the information resides on and run a query to it. OK, sometimes I'll need to pick up an Excel file because my systems are weak in places, but that's what SSIS is for....
If I do find I need to pick up a txt or csv in future I promise to ask Google how to do it.
September 23, 2009 at 3:14 am
Google is fine...as long as the advice you get is available and correct...and a digger hasn't gone through your broadband pipe and you're on a site which allows internet access...and you've got the time to do the research.
There are some things that we should just KNOW without having to open google. Your manager can use Google too!
September 23, 2009 at 4:08 am
I would argue that you are not a dba if you are not good at scripting and know your database product such as ms sql server. I have myself not really been in contact with DB people that were supposed to work with the DB that were not interested and didnt want to learn.
All thou this I agree completely with. "However blindly following advice and asking questions because you don't want to work on you career is a sure path to failure."
September 23, 2009 at 6:02 am
We have never had a good solid profile or definition of what a DBA "is" and this has been a long-time complaint from many of us. Without such a profile, the point made in today's editorial is a given. You don't have any measure of what a DBA "is" and thus it follows that there is no measure of what DBA should know, fundamentals or otherwise.
Of course, this situation applies not only to DBAs, but to many positions in the IT sector. Go on any job site and you will find most companies advertise for knowledge in "this system" or "that application" - not looking for a measured professional, but someone who "fits" the software and systems we use.
Imagine finding a doctor for some serious operation that way!!! It's insanity. We ask if the person is an MD and hope they graduated from a recognized good school - we don't start asking them how many colons they have worked on, or whether or not they can successfully fix a spleen.
We created this insanity and have done nothing for years. We are thus, only reaping the very thing we sewed.
September 23, 2009 at 6:51 am
blandry (9/23/2009)
Imagine finding a doctor for some serious operation that way!!! It's insanity. We ask if the person is an MD and hope they graduated from a recognized good school - we don't start asking them how many colons they have worked on, or whether or not they can successfully fix a spleen.
Not sure that's really true. If you need specialized surgery you would do well to look for a doctor with a lot of experience (and success) in that area. Except when he is a new doctor, the school is largely irrelevant.
Even within the realm of medical doctor, even though there is a common basic skillset there are widely different requirements in the field. Someone good at coronary bypass might not be a good choice for other surgery or other types of medical situations. I know a doctor who thrives on ER work. Not knowing what procedure you will be involved in 10 minutes from now is very different from having an appointment book set up weeks in advance.
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-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
September 23, 2009 at 6:56 am
Before becoming a developer, I was leaning towards network administration back in the days of Novell. The training back then was 'when you see this warning do this' and 'when you see that warning do that'. I found myself thinking, "Gee, it seems like sooner or later the 'do this' and 'do that' will become automatic. And I was right - Microsoft early on developed core philosophies that most things should self-heal and self-run as much as possible.
This is good news and bad news. The good news is that it's very easy to set up and run a lot of Microsoft products, as well as products from other companies who hold similar philosophies. The bad news is that there is no such thing as perfect planning on the part of the people who design enterprise applications like SQL Server. It's entirely possible to call yourself a DBA and have no idea what's going on underneath the covers. Sooner or later that can lead to big problems. The joke at the consulting firm I used to work with was "How do you tell the difference between a SQL server DBA and an Oracle DBA?" The answer: The Oracle DBA arrives with a steamer trunk full of books on how to run Oracle. The SQL Server DBA shows up with one book entitled "SQL Server for Dummies".
Yes, there is an ongoing discussion about how to define a DBA. My suggestion is that this is Microsoft's job. Those definitions should make their way into the certification process. Companies who want their database run well should either require certification or help their DBAs to get it.
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“Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.”
September 23, 2009 at 7:38 am
ZA_Crafty (9/22/2009)
my 2c on why this is happening...It became simply too easy to ask something on a forum, or search it on google.
Welcome to the New Generation of IT.
If you can generate a decent Google search query, then you can do ANY Job in IT 🙂
I have to partially disagree with the comment about Google.
If you don't know what words to put in the search, you'll have trouble getting valid results. And if you don't know enough to be able to judge the validity of the various results, you can get into a lot of trouble.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 23, 2009 at 7:42 am
I'd have to go with "it depends".
If you're doing the assigned duties of your job correctly and efficiently, but can't do anything beyond that, you're not failing your employer. You may be trapping yourself, if you have the potential to be doing more and, quite possibly, earning more because of that. But you aren't failing the trust you're being paid to uphold.
On the other hand, that which doesn't improve gets worse. If you aren't constantly improving your skills, you will eventually either be out-competed by someone who is, or will find that your skills are obsolete. It's a Darwinian world - compete effectively or die.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 23, 2009 at 7:45 am
I'd agree with Google. I find things that so many newbies don't seem to find. Knowing how the product works, and having had to work with Google to get answers leads experienced people to find better answers.
A DBA is a general wrapper, and asked to do so many jobs, it's like being a general practitioner. You're asked to do many different things depending on the situation. Any you may not succeeed in some of those places. It's not Microsoft's job to define this. It's ours, and I think we've started by noting people as development DBAs, production DBAs, etc.
September 23, 2009 at 8:11 am
As I see it, the more one is shielded from the internals of something complex, the less (or at least slower) you pick up deep knowledge by working with it. I am a firm believer that just force feeding books to students is a bad method for learning. It certainly will mentally discourage the more creative and inventive students, hence anyone that needs to make or organize things later in their career.
Looking at my surroundings, it is clear those that excel in a field have interest in it and spend considerable time tinkering and testing. Just implementing algorithms or tricks that are learned from a book have nearly zero value if you can’t apply them outside the original context. You need to ‘play’ with it and grasp what makes it work or break and test novel variations. When you learn to combine and tweak it in novel ways you can apply the underlying principles to other problems as well.
Some programming experience to automate things help a lot and I feel that this is a skill everyone in IT should have at a basic level. This covers important scripting languages ofcourse.
September 23, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Someguy (9/23/2009)
Yes, there is an ongoing discussion about how to define a DBA. My suggestion is that this is Microsoft's job. Those definitions should make their way into the certification process. Companies who want their database run well should either require certification or help their DBAs to get it.
There are a lot of DBAs who have non-Microsoft experience - even on a forum focused on Microsoft SQL Server.
September 23, 2009 at 6:05 pm
This argument has been made before. Ask an IT guy (or gal) in their late 50's and I'm certain you will hear laments about how every IT person should be made to learn assembly or PASCAL or FORTRAN or some other bit of archaic technology. While I agree that basic scripting skills are very desirable, the naked truth is that it's not necessary anymore. Type "copy file script" into Google and you have thousands of options for finding a solution. Are we are going give an Initiate a week's worth of time to figure out a scripting solution when the answer is less than 30 seconds away? Unlikely.
Having said that, I'm an IT guy in my late...older than 30 ok...and like the Old Guard I lament the lack of basic IT skills. I just have to accept that people now rely on Google (or Bing, or whatever) for many of their answers. :crying:
James Stover, McDBA
September 24, 2009 at 2:12 am
James Stover (9/23/2009)
Having said that, I'm an IT guy in my late...older than 30 ok...and like the Old Guard I lament the lack of basic IT skills. I just have to accept that people now rely on Google (or Bing, or whatever) for many of their answers. :crying:
You don't have to accept anything just like that. It is not so much that you can find things on the internet that can be useful, but the creative, novel and correct application of the things you find. Understanding and experience always helps to get better results.
Just because there is something like Google does not mean we all should just learn to read and write and be superficial in everything else, because we can find it on the internet. It's a false argument, at one time the person who wrote the solution had to know his stuff and we can't all be recyclers. There are examples where a good advice for one situation is a horrible advice for another. If you find a solution on the internet without background experience on the matter you can do very bad by adopting the found solution or end up with something horribly complex or that you don’t even understand, let alone can maintain in case of unforeseen problems.
There is no real substitute for experience. The language doesn't matter all that much, what is important is the mindset and knowing the "glue" tools that are available to you today to add value to any solution you can find and understand.
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