April 6, 2009 at 9:37 am
Jack Corbett (4/6/2009)
webrunner (4/6/2009)
(snip)So, my basic proposal is to (1) have a clear, short list of rules to follow that is (2) presented to the user before they can even write a comment, so they can't claim ignorance or claim that they were rushing due to an emergency.
I'm sure this is not a perfect solution, not least of which because it asks the people who run the site, and the users who offend the least, to put work into changing the system for those who offend the most. But it is possible that the payoff will be better threads, and possibly the self-selecting out of those who decide for whatever reason that they don't want to be part of SSC.
Just my two cents,
webrunner
This has been suggested in the past as well, and could be a good idea, but, and I could be wrong, I think one of the goals of SSC is to make it easy to be member and still get quality answers.
Thanks! Yes, I can see that the barrier to entry must not be too high. That's why I think a short version of the etiquette, reviewed before joining, might help. It can't be longer than a few lines, but having something there to remind them of the importance of etiquette may impress upon them that etiquette is not an afterthought and may actually help them solve their problem (in addition to making them a better person...).
It's certainly something that I think is worth piloting if it is getting to the point (SSC is rapidly growing, last I heard) where the anonymity factor tips the site over and too many people feel they can post rude or impatient requests. If it gets out of hand, some kind of moderation system may be needed, though the overhead for that workflow would be enormous. I just would hate to see SSC devolve into the kind of stuff that sometimes happens in Google groups.
Best,
webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
April 6, 2009 at 10:34 am
Steve -
I know this thread will get a lot of mileage, but my goodness I hope you read my post here:
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY IN THE RIGHT TO WRITE THAT EDITORIAL!!! I have personally seen and been appauled by posters who essentially say, "just give me the answer - and don't bother me with all the questions and explanation". They want a code snippet to cut and paste into their project to solve their problem and move on. They don't want to understand the solution, they just want a black box that they can plug in and make the problem go away.
Your efforts to "teach the fisherman to fish" is, and always will be the right way to do this. I can only hope that you aren't deterred by the few who act like children and become impatient with your questions and detail. I guess when you are dealing with a SQL community and a public forum that can be searched and accessed by literally millions your chances of finding a few juveniles is pretty good! 😉
Take heart in knowing that I, like many, many others consider this site and its forums to be an invaluable resource, have used it for years now, and truly appreciate your efforts and the quality of content we find here. I find it particularly impressive that this site is one of the default search sites used by BOL when the online content is enabled.
I personally think that mentorship is one of the best things you can do with knowledge gained, and you're doing a great job of it. Keep up the good work!
While I'm at it I'd like to throw in a big salute to all the seasoned veterans who regularly contribute posts and content at SQLServerCentral.com. You know who you are!!
-Bob St. Aubyn
April 6, 2009 at 10:40 am
majorbloodnock (4/6/2009)
Well, I expect you'll get a lot more posts to this thread agreeing with your article, albeit (frustratingly) all from people who wouldn't commit that cardinal sin in the first place. The converted will stay converted and the unbelievers will continue in their rude and arrogant rut. Nonetheless, I still think you were right to say what you've said. Unless there's a line publicly drawn, a minority will assume that anything must, therefore, be acceptable.However, what I think is irrelevant is the fact that almost everyone on SSC gives their time and knowledge for free. Even if they were paid for their input, I don't believe the distasteful postings would become any the less unacceptable. Whilst I appreciate the very democratic feel of the forums here, I don't feel direct enforcement of the terms and conditions is in the slightest heavy handed, and I hope you don't feel the need to justify yourself to us when you have to do it.
Well said. Very well said, actually.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
April 6, 2009 at 11:16 am
Andy Warren (4/6/2009)
Food for thought on those answering posts - one of my sayings is that "you have to be in the right place in life to lesson some lessons", and after you've learned your own, it's often hard to be patient with those that havent.
Excellent point. It is hard sometimes to remember what you thought when you started.
I've actually had to post recently as a "newbie" on a few other forums for audio/video questions. I used that as a basis to decide if I was being too sensitive here. I didn't expect someone to provide me free consulting. I was expecting that I'd have to work a bit to learn something, I just wanted advice/direction on how to proceed.
April 6, 2009 at 11:28 am
Andy Warren (4/6/2009)
Steve, on a side note, it would be really interesting to see if you can't find a way to identify/flag what those posts/posters might have in common. Are they all first time posters? All from the same geographic area? Poor grammar? Probably more subtle.
I'm not sure there's a pattern other than a personality issue for many. Even those that post what we might consider inappropriate in the US can respond in different ways. I see people from other cultures respond with an apology or a request for clarification. And I see some become belligerent or rude.
I'd like to say it's an age thing, but I'm not sure. I think it's a human thing.
April 6, 2009 at 11:32 am
I'll echo what some of the others have said: when I point someone to Jeff's article, it is almost always because I do not think that I can answer their question without it. And usually that is because I cannot understand what they are trying to ask.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
April 6, 2009 at 11:43 am
...
Take heart in knowing that I, like many, many others consider this site and its forums to be an invaluable resource, have used it for years now, and truly appreciate your efforts and the quality of content we find here. I find it particularly impressive that this site is one of the default search sites used by BOL when the online content is enabled.
I personally think that mentorship is one of the best things you can do with knowledge gained, and you're doing a great job of it. Keep up the good work!
... -Bob St. Aubyn
I so agree. I find this site not only great for its content, but also the moral(e) support of it's contributors.
I only wish I could be more of a contributor.
Thank you All.
-- Optimist with experience and still learning
April 6, 2009 at 12:10 pm
foursaints (4/6/2009)
Steve -I know this thread will get a lot of mileage, but my goodness I hope you read my post here:
While I'm at it I'd like to throw in a big salute to all the seasoned veterans who regularly contribute posts and content at SQLServerCentral.com. You know who you are!!
-Bob St. Aubyn
Thanks, Bob, and I'm sure I speak for everyone that's posted an answer as well.
April 6, 2009 at 3:11 pm
The reason not to provide the entie solution is that each situation is different and the person who asks the question can not really capture all aspects of their environment /settings in his question. Because if he could, he would not be asking questions for the first place.
So we can only suggest solutions. As for how much to explain, I start with the links or high-level answer and if the person gets back to me I ask for his / her level of expertise on the subject. Sometimes it does not take much time to explain details but it makes a lot of difference for a newbie. Who will probably read on the subject anyway.
Regards,Yelena Varsha
April 6, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I don't comment a lot on forums, I used to about 8-9 years ago, but just stopped because I found that I spent more time explaining things to people who didn't bother doing basic research than I did to people who has interesting issues. My brother is one the Senior Moderators over at GameDev and we where just talking about this subject this morning; after he had someone blowup on him, because he felt he was being ignored. For him this is a pretty common issue and he gets a sadistic chuckle while playing with these idiots. I just find it easier to be anonymous. I feel really bad that I read forums all the time, but never say anything and it is something that I added as a new year's resolution. However, like most resolutions, I haven't accomplished much towards it.
April 6, 2009 at 4:04 pm
That New Scientist forum was really interesting! Thanks for posting it!
April 6, 2009 at 4:29 pm
...and I also thought I should add my two cents' worth.
When I started programming, I was fortunate to be working with some people who really knew their stuff. They weren't very good at passing it on, though, so I had to learn a few things. I still think they're good principles for any newbie field - I still use it whenever I move into a new field or want to branch into a new skill set.
1. Don't start out thinking you have something to prove.
2. Keep a magic book handy, and write all your tips and the clever things you've learnt in it.
3. Ask once fearlessly. Ask twice hesitantly. Ask three times apologetically - you should have written it down in your magic book by now!
4. There's no reason not to ask the stupid question - you may not be the only one wondering, and at the very least it may clear up the assumptions around the table.
5. Grammar and syntax is important in your programming. Why would you think it's not important in your posts and emails?
On the other side of the fence, I have found these principles are useful in dealing with the possibly brain-dead, but more likely confused:
1. Don't start out thinking you have something to prove.
2. Ask for the basic problem parameters once politely, twice insistently. Don't ask a third time.
3. Give examples if they can't seem to articulate their problem.
4. If they're rude or aggressive, just politely tell them you can't help unless they give you enough information. If they have given you the information but you don't feel like doing them a favour with that attitude, bombard them with every exception or contributing complication you can think of, in hopes that they might FINALLY realise that cook books don't teach you how to cook, just how to follow recipes.
5. If they're posting to the wrong forum, then even if you know the answer, don't - tell them to ask in the right place.
I think that if you don't want to learn, you shouldn't be in IT.
I also think that there's so much confusion these days between public and private space - witness iPods with leaky headphones, and breakup calls on mobiles, on PUBLIC TRANSPORT!!! - that we shouldn't be surprised people don't respect others' head space online either.
And I also loved the Google hint - very clever.
April 6, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Nice list, Meredith.
Feel free to use the "report button" to let me know about misposted items. Also dups, I tend to close them out if I see them.
April 6, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (4/6/2009)
Nice list, Meredith.Feel free to use the "report button" to let me know about misposted items. Also dups, I tend to close them out if I see them.
Duh, I may start using it on the posts in the wrong forums. There are so many dupes I wouldn't want to saturate your day with them all.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
April 6, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Lynn Pettis (4/5/2009)
Well said, both the editorial and the pod cast. From that, I really think that my blog posts are particularly relevant. For those who haven't read them, you can find them here and here.I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. I'm especially interested to see what others think.
I quit reading when I got to here on your blog...
The first is to treat the individual with respect. Do this even if they are not showing you that same respect in return. It isn't easy, but it shows strength of character, and eventually the individual may see that and begin to show more respect in return.
I'll not turn the other cheek for anyone who comes storming onto the forum in a rude manner. I don't tolerate it in person and I don't have to take it from a forum user.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
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