April 6, 2009 at 6:49 am
I liked the podcast even more than the editorial.
I don't think you were only pointing at those asking questions when you suggested we needed to treat others as we wanted to be treated. That's directed at those who try to answer the questions too. I think most people who answer questions around here, or at least those who post frequently, say the top 10, really do know that as well. And yes, getting a more complete answer for each question you post would be nice, but far to frequently the questions being asked are similar to, if not identical to questions that were asked earlier that day or earlier that week. That's why some of the top posters, such as Gail, write nice long detailed blog posts describing some behavior or other and the simply point the people questioning to that post. Did she "answer" their question? No. Did she provide them information to solve their problem? Yes. Since the top posters are all doing this for free, I don't think it's even remotely unreasonable for them to ask those posting questions to meet them half way. Or at least a 1/4 of the way. Further, I think they should absolutely be able to expect to be treated with respect. When I see people getting nasty, I generally stop posting on the thread (I slipped up & engaged once. I regret it). I think a lot of others do as well.
So, if you really want help and you're not just trying to kick up some mud, to get maximum eyeballs, be nice.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
April 6, 2009 at 6:57 am
What’s amazing to me is how often I feel that I'm babysitting someone on this site in trying to lead them to an answer. I feel like I'm trying to teach 5 year olds about SQL Server some days.
Welcome to my world! I wear a lot of hat's but I have clients and coworkers asking the same questions day after day, when the answer is in the training material, in the online documents, in the FAQ, easily Googled for, or printed on my forehead. I'm always polite, but I'm beginning to understand why my grey-bearded mentors asked; "Have you Read The Friendly Manual?" in a gruff tone of voice.
Give it time, we'll all be like the folks at comp.lang.lisp 😛
April 6, 2009 at 6:58 am
You are right, we should just walk away. There are several heavy hitters here that would agree with you. The problem, however, is that it isn't easy for some of us to do that. We are passionate about what we do and we try very hard to help. It could be an OP that just wants the answer to a problem/question getting frustrated or it could be a language barrier. But some of us, still want to reach out help where we can.
Also, for each person we help, it makes up for the several rude ones we deal with. Seeing the light bulb turn on when someone figures out what was wrong and how to fix it makes the dificult times worth it.
April 6, 2009 at 7:14 am
Take a look at this article. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html.
OK now I've blown Eric's servers out of the water, when someone asks a question that clearly indicates they have not tried even the simplest Google query - if you are motivated to ask the question for them then you can send them the result like this... as a kind of gentle hint.
April 6, 2009 at 7:16 am
just a comment on the bit about feeling like your baby sitting, leading people to the answers.
i'm the sort of person that does like to do my own homework and find the answers for myself. rather than getting the answer straight awya. i feel that being able to find an answer to a problem by myself is just as big a part of being a good developer as the actual answer itself.
so i do agree that it is frustrating when someone just wants the answer on a plate.
April 6, 2009 at 7:19 am
Interesting comments, I'll have to think on a few before posting more.]
As an FYI, Lynn has a great blog here on this same subject.
April 6, 2009 at 7:24 am
Pride and Dignity often get in the way of a person being helpful. Especially for those of us who being a DBA (or any other job function) is our career choice. We spend a lot of our time staying good at what we do not to mention the time we spent to get here.
When someone comes in and says... 'Can't you just tell me everything you do?' we take it as a major insult.
I think that we could probably answer a lot of questions by setting up a bot that automatically responds to all questions with 'Please click this link' and it is a link to a google search of the topic they posted. Many people are far to willing to grab a crutch not realizing that often the crutch will take longer than doing their own research.
This is where the knowledgeable lot steps in. Instead of hiding behind a screen name as far too many people do on forums of any type, we need to embrace curiosity and help to educate people. Stay positive and remember that your emotions cannot be read most of the time the way you intend them. So as a reader and a writer we need to assume the best intentions were used in the forums. Be an optimist instead of a pessimist.
Communication is probably the most difficult skill to master, regardless of what you do.
April 6, 2009 at 7:35 am
I think the whole manners issue on online forums is related to the de-humanizing aspect of the internet. People are willing to type things online that they probably would think twice or three times about before saying it to someone's face. Maybe it's because there are fewwer reprecussions posting it online.
The problems I've seen on SQLServerCentral forums do go both directions though. Yes there are alot of people who don't know how to ask the proper question, or how to ask it in a way that the people trying to answer the question would like it to be asked. But there are also a number of things that some of the "elites" here do that don't help, including the constant replies that questions need to be formatted in a specific way, even when it isn't always necessary.
There are many people that look to the forumns on this site who either are application developers who have been forced by their companies to do database work even though that isn't their primary knowledge area, or are database developers who have been forced by their company to do DBA work even though that isn't their primary knowledge area.
I used to contribute to the forumns here, trying to help people where I could, but after being criticized multiple times for the way I help people, or for not forcing them to ask the question in the proper format, I've stopped. To me, the rudeness of some of the "elites" here is only slightly better than that of some of the Linux bigots who say things like "RTFM noob!"
April 6, 2009 at 7:45 am
Manners are important. If we don't treat each other right within the community, the community will cease to exist. This dates me, but I've seen very busy BBSes die because folks on it became uncivil towards each other. With that said, I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt. As Lynn indicated, it may be a language barrier issue. It may be that they've been beating their head on the problem and they know it should be a simple solution and they just can't break through.
But when the OP turns abusive, I leave the thread. There's no point helping someone when they are like that because if they get the answer they need with that sort of bullying behavior, they will assume that behavior will work in the future. I'm not providing a "reward" for bad behavior. After all, I want our community to grow. Since I primarly work with SQL Server, I will admit having a vested interest and bias in seeing it become more popular and more used. The last thing I want is part of our community dying off because people feel rudeness gets results.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
April 6, 2009 at 8:20 am
Dennis Wagner (4/6/2009)
It is always important to be civil on forums and in life. However, I feel the frustration that develops when you simply cannot solve a problem. I am one of those developers who has spent the last six years trying to be a DBA -- not because I want to but because there are no DBAs where I work. I try and learn as much as I can when I get the opportunity, but there are some things that just go beyond my understanding, and I will not be able to solve those problems without a lot of research. The difficulty is knowing where to look and knowing what you are looking for. Try Googling something that has about 10 words in it and you're not exactly sure what you're asking for. You typically find a ton of completely unrelated junk and a mix of forum entries. Thank you to those who spend their time helping people like me on the forums.In these tough economic times when companies begin to tighten their budgets by reducing their payroll, those of us left have a greater responsibility and with that comes a greater workload. We still want to get home to see the wife and kids and we have our other responsibilities outside of work like mowing the grass, changing light bulbs, etc., so working more hours is often not an option. When we can't solve a problem quickly and our productivity starts to slip, we worry that we could be the next ones to go. Sometimes you really want to learn what went wrong, but other times, you just want to fix it and get it behind you.
I guess what I'm saying, is that while it is never OK to use profanity or bite the hand of someone who is trying to help you, it is also nice to have a little more understanding when helping out. I completely understand that it is unfair to ask someone to spend a lot of time giving you a solution for free. I've also read threads on here about how to post questions to the forum -- what information to give, what examples to use, etc. They are great reads. However, sending that link to someone when they don't follow that advice is also curt. Maybe these threads should be required reading before someone can post a question. It would certainly reduce the frustration of those trying to help and maybe it would make those who are posting questions understand a little more about what is required to get help. There are no free handouts in life, you've got to fill out the proper paperwork (in triplicate) first.
Thanks for your reply. I will likely post another reply once I'm through with reading the next page and a half of comments (hoping it won't grow by another page or two in the meantime 🙂 ). But I wanted to thank you for taking on the tough task of being sympathetic with those who for whatever reason don't follow posting etiquette, without letting them off the hook for doing so. I found your reply very balanced.
I also want to briefly state that I have sometimes posted a question before fully researching it, but only in cases where there was such an immediate emergency, and one that seemed likely to have been encountered and solved by the SSC experts, that it made little sense to waste time searching at that moment. But I always thank everyone in advance for any help, and I apologize when I know I haven't searched ahead of time. And I also state whenever I have searched and have come up empty - or have tried in vain to quickly piece things together from BOL entries. I totally agree that sometimes Google is a source of shoddy forum posts at best, and misleading, irrelevant misinformation at worst. Some DBA questions (configuration and mainstream SQL tasks) lend themselves to Google searches. But a lot of the important ones do not, and that is when I (and probably a lot of the harried users who lose their tempers) head to SSC.
I know the solution to this problem is probably not technical, but I wonder if it might help a little to consider the following change to the posting system:
1. Come up with an easily digested "short version" of the etiquette rules - the purpose is not to water down the etiquette or repeat pages such as Jeff Moden's great article on posting format[/url], but to have an easy-to-understand version of the etiquette that no one will be able to claim was too long for them to read. And make clear to them that following etiquette is in their best interest if they expect help when they need it. The basic rules are probably not that long and can be stated in a few lines.
2. When a person signs up, emphasize posting etiquette, and don't let them complete sign-up without going through that "short version" page, with a link to the full version. There's a chance that some people won't read it at all (as is done with "Click to Agree" forms in software installations), but at least you have directed users to the etiquette at the start, and no user will be able to say that they had not seen it. In many cases, you will catch the users while they are still relatively calm instead of when they have an emergency to solve and are less likely to use proper etiquette.
So, my basic proposal is to (1) have a clear, short list of rules to follow that is (2) presented to the user before they can even write a comment, so they can't claim ignorance or claim that they were rushing due to an emergency.
I'm sure this is not a perfect solution, not least of which because it asks the people who run the site, and the users who offend the least, to put work into changing the system for those who offend the most. But it is possible that the payoff will be better threads, and possibly the self-selecting out of those who decide for whatever reason that they don't want to be part of SSC.
Just my two cents,
webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
April 6, 2009 at 8:31 am
I try to set a relatively low threshold for what I expect from a question before I'll try to answer it. Or, to put it another way, I try to set a very high standard for myself for understanding what was asked. At the same time, there's a big difference between a poorly researched, poorly written forum post, and one that's deliberately rude.
There are times, however, when I simply cannot understand what's being asked. At that point, I'll ask for clarification.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
April 6, 2009 at 8:47 am
Chris Harshman (4/6/2009)
I think the whole manners issue on online forums is related to the de-humanizing aspect of the internet. People are willing to type things online that they probably would think twice or three times about before saying it to someone's face. Maybe it's because there are fewwer reprecussions posting it online.The problems I've seen on SQLServerCentral forums do go both directions though. Yes there are alot of people who don't know how to ask the proper question, or how to ask it in a way that the people trying to answer the question would like it to be asked. But there are also a number of things that some of the "elites" here do that don't help, including the constant replies that questions need to be formatted in a specific way, even when it isn't always necessary.
There are many people that look to the forumns on this site who either are application developers who have been forced by their companies to do database work even though that isn't their primary knowledge area, or are database developers who have been forced by their company to do DBA work even though that isn't their primary knowledge area.
I used to contribute to the forumns here, trying to help people where I could, but after being criticized multiple times for the way I help people, or for not forcing them to ask the question in the proper format, I've stopped. To me, the rudeness of some of the "elites" here is only slightly better than that of some of the Linux bigots who say things like "RTFM noob!"
Yes, we do seem to ask OP's to format problems in a certain way, and your correct that sometimes a problem can't be formatted in that way. Several problems I have asked for help didn't fit the "standard format". Most of the questions where this is asked require the same things, DDL for the tables, sample data to populate the data, expected results based on the sample data, and what they have tried so far to solve the problem.
Personally, the more work that an OP does up front to help us help them, the more effort I'll put into helping solve the problem. I have spent considerable effort at times reformatting code so I could understand it better, creating tables from rough descriptions of the data, and taking poorly presented data and putting it into a format that I could then use. But why should I, or anyone else, have to do that to help someone. I truely believe that if someone takes the time to properly present a problem, following the examples set in Jeff Moden's article for instance, that they will get better answers to thier questions. I have even seen a few OP's solve thier own problem just going through the exercise of getting everything together as asked.
We are here to help, but we could use help in helping. Sound confusing? It isn't. The more information provided, the more detail regarding a question or problem, the better the answer in return.
April 6, 2009 at 9:11 am
I agree that manners are important.
Yes, I am guilty of often not providing an answer, but asking for more information, many times pointing to links in my signature line (Jeff's excellent article is one). Normally when I do this it is because I don't understand the problem. Posting DDL, Test Data, and expected results helps bridge any language gaps so I can understand.
There are also times, this thread for example, when I provide an answer that I don't think really answers the problem, and also request more information.
I regularly provide links for answers because I googled the problem and found the answer. Why re-write it?
I also have taken the time to write blog posts or articles, like Gail or Jeff, to address commonly seen problems and then reference the blog post or article. It's like code re-use. Why write the same thing over and over when I can link to it?
I'll jump out of thread whenever it gets personal. You don't have to agree with a solution I provide, but don't get personal. If it happens more than once then I put that user on my blacklist and ignore those posts. I don't like to do it, but if you can't be nice when you are asking for help then I won't provide it, usually others will.
I try to be polite whenever I answer a question and I think I should be called out when I get out of line.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
April 6, 2009 at 9:11 am
Lynn Pettis briefly noted something about solving the issue while writing about it and I like to follow up on that 🙂
It is a well known fact that when you need to articulate a problem, you better learn to understand it and in doing so solve it. It provides clarity and taps into more brain power then you would otherwise allocate to it. Maybe more important, it helps to cut out incoherent design issues before you start implementing anything. It is after all impossibly hard to describe something incoherent or structureless.
For this very reason it is good to just talk to someone at work and explain what you try to solve even before you run for the forums. The other person does not even have to grasp what you do. In fact it somtimes is better if he doesn't as that forces you to focus on the essense and take a step back before progressing. You will often identify flaws in your own previous "assumtions" and see things more with an outside/objective perspective.
Another method is to just write some documentation upfront explaining what exactly the process you are implementing will do and how it should work in detail. This doesnt have to be final documentation or even live beyond the scope of the development process. Don't waste time on spelling, this is just a tool to help you focus.
Do give the process some time as writing something down is never right the first few iterations is my experience. This process works often enough to be a valuable tool in its own right. And if it does not for you like it does for me then you have a great start for a good forum post, to tap into that massive amount of external brain power and experience there.
This makes forming a good description upfront never a waste of spend time 🙂
April 6, 2009 at 9:15 am
webrunner (4/6/2009)
1. Come up with an easily digested "short version" of the etiquette rules - the purpose is not to water down the etiquette or repeat pages such as Jeff Moden's great article on posting format[/url], but to have an easy-to-understand version of the etiquette that no one will be able to claim was too long for them to read. And make clear to them that following etiquette is in their best interest if they expect help when they need it. The basic rules are probably not that long and can be stated in a few lines.2. When a person signs up, emphasize posting etiquette, and don't let them complete sign-up without going through that "short version" page, with a link to the full version. There's a chance that some people won't read it at all (as is done with "Click to Agree" forms in software installations), but at least you have directed users to the etiquette at the start, and no user will be able to say that they had not seen it. In many cases, you will catch the users while they are still relatively calm instead of when they have an emergency to solve and are less likely to use proper etiquette.
So, my basic proposal is to (1) have a clear, short list of rules to follow that is (2) presented to the user before they can even write a comment, so they can't claim ignorance or claim that they were rushing due to an emergency.
I'm sure this is not a perfect solution, not least of which because it asks the people who run the site, and the users who offend the least, to put work into changing the system for those who offend the most. But it is possible that the payoff will be better threads, and possibly the self-selecting out of those who decide for whatever reason that they don't want to be part of SSC.
Just my two cents,
webrunner
This has been suggested in the past as well, and could be a good idea, but, and I could be wrong, I think one of the goals of SSC is to make it easy to be member and still get quality answers.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
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