March 16, 2009 at 11:32 am
wow, I've never expected a vacation for turning in notice. I'm surprised that valued employees would feel that way. Changes my definition of "valued"
March 16, 2009 at 11:52 am
My last two jobs:
First one: One Friday afternoon, everyone in the building was told to pack up their desks and go home, and was told we'd be called if we should come in Monday. Of course, nobody was called. No two-week notice there, of course.
Second one: I gave my two-week notice, worked both weeks, turned over the job, and am still on good terms with the company. Went over there the other day (my wife still works there) to visit with some folks, and everyone was glad to see me, and I to see them. (The owner walked right past me in the hall, nodded hello, did a double-take and got all excited about seeing me. He was so used to seeing me every day that, when he saw me again, he momentarily forgot that he hadn't seen me in two months! Was pretty funny, even to him.)
Prior to collapsing under bad management and worse marketing, the first company didn't really have a consistent policy. Some people were asked to do a full two weeks, some were escorted to their desk to collect up their stuff under supervision, at least one was met at the door by police (that's a different situation), one was asked to stay until they actually started their next job. And then, of course, there were the people who should have been asked to resign but weren't, but that's also another story.
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Property of The Thread
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March 16, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Back in the early 1990s I got made redundant on my birthday. Of course they waited until after lunch when I had bought the cakes that employees are supposed to bring for their colleagues on such a day!
At that time the general policy was to get rid of people on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon as people are not in full work and thought mode.
Those of us who whose contracts said one months notice were paid in lieu of notice and escorted off the premises.
It was quick, decisive and over and done with.
Contrast that with today where in the UK the labour laws require written notification that your job is at risk, a 30 day consultation period and then confirmation of your dismissal.
Because you have to make positions redundant and not people everyone at your grade in your position has to be put at risk.
Its a slow protracted death that is utterly demoralising. I know the process exists to ensure that all employees are treated fairly but it isn't nice for them or there surviving colleagues.
If people know that certain postions are being reduced it can be a bit unhealthy if 5 people are put at risk but 2 positions are definitely going to go.
It's not a nice experience.
The bit about stealing data doesn't surprise me at all, even if it is unintentional. A USB key can hold gigabytes of information. There are a few times when I've used my personal USB key to transport company data legitimately but forgot to clear it off later.
There are also times when I've used my own personal time and equipment to meet a tight deadline so the source code for a project is on my own PC.
I don't have any neffarious reason behind holding onto such data. If Adventureworks was more realistic I would probably just delete it off.
March 16, 2009 at 3:12 pm
I think someone above nailed it. 'Stolen Data' probably includes emails, contacts, coding, etc.
I always have my email (and therefor my contacts) backup up at home, especially now that I can just connect my Outlook at home to my Exchange here at work.
The only contacts\emails I would use would be the ones for my personal contacts and vendors\contractors I wanted to stay in touch with, etc.
I do also periodically back up all my own coding and ship it home. Since I am often coding from home, it makes business sense while I am at @CurrentJob, and yes, I'd likely carry most of it with me to a new job to use as a reference, if nothing else.
Obviously, I would have to comb through it and recode it to match the new company's needs, and I would certainly make sure no actual data from the previous job got carried over.
If I worked for a company that was reselling my code, that would be a big 'No No', but since the company is just using it for the Reports server, etc, I don't feel as if I am taking anything from them.
(Plus, of course, by having backup copies, I can still answer questions for them down the road, or help whoever replaces me do troubleshooting)
I don't get companies that kick an I.T. type out as soon as they turn in their notice. As plenty of other have said, we know it will happen, and will just take whatever steps we need to take ahead of time. All it does is hurt the company by forcing sudden, unplanned loss of resources for whoever is still around.
At my current job, two weeks wouldn't even be enough notice, really. Likely, I will give them more along the lines of 2 months notice, to give them time to replace me and let me validate\train the new person.
March 16, 2009 at 3:37 pm
doohickeyjones (3/16/2009)
I always have my email (and therefor my contacts) backup up at home, especially now that I can just connect my Outlook at home to my Exchange here at work.The only contacts\emails I would use would be the ones for my personal contacts and vendors\contractors I wanted to stay in touch with, etc.
Nonetheless, 95% of the people reading this, these are all property of your employer/client.
I do also periodically back up all my own coding and ship it home. Since I am often coding from home, it makes business sense while I am at @CurrentJob, and yes, I'd likely carry most of it with me to a new job to use as a reference, if nothing else.
Obviously, I would have to comb through it and recode it to match the new company's needs, and I would certainly make sure no actual data from the previous job got carried over.
If I worked for a company that was reselling my code, that would be a big 'No No', but since the company is just using it for the Reports server, etc, I don't feel as if I am taking anything from them.
No, this is a big "No, no" already. This is NOT your property, it is their property. They are free to let you take it with you if they want to, but it is THEIR call, not yours. This is legally, ethically and morally no different than secretly photocopying all of the business files in your office and taking them home to help you out with your next job.
(Plus, of course, by having backup copies, I can still answer questions for them down the road, or help whoever replaces me do troubleshooting)
Again, legally their decision, and not yours.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
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March 16, 2009 at 3:47 pm
doohickeyjones (3/16/2009)
At my current job, two weeks wouldn't even be enough notice, really. Likely, I will give them more along the lines of 2 months notice, to give them time to replace me and let me validate\train the new person.
This, however, goes the other way: This is not your problem it is theirs. Replacing you is also not your problem, but theirs.
And unless you have some contract or agreement with them that says otherwise, (or your laws require it), IMHO you are only ethically required to give as much notice for leaving as their policy requires them to give you for layoffs or other involuntary termination (including any guaranteed severance pay). Fair's fair, no matter who's wearing the boots.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
March 16, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I'm a little torn on some of this stuff. Employers over the last two decades have not respected personal time from me in most cases. They have a definition of personal time being when I'm not needed/wanted.
I've written about lots of things at work, even used scripts in articles that I built at work. Or was it used scripts at work that I built in articles?
The line blurs. I'd argue that some of the contacts I make at work are not completely work related. They're personal as well. If I take those contacts, without depriving my former company of them, am I stealing? If I don't use them for work issues? If I take scripts that I might reuse at a new job, am I stealing? When is it work-for-hire, when is it my work, when is it something that is so open that I can use it freely elsewhere?
I think having code, emails, contacts, etc. at home is not necessarily theft. If you use it to somehow harm the company, compete with them, then it probably is. If it's reference material, or used for non-commercial/competing purposes, or used in another non-competitive situation, I'm not sure it is.
March 16, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (3/16/2009)
I think having code, emails, contacts, etc. at home is not necessarily theft. If you use it to somehow harm the company, compete with them, then it probably is. If it's reference material, or used for non-commercial/competing purposes, or used in another non-competitive situation, I'm not sure it is.
It is OK, if they understand what you are doing and agree to it. And either way, it is still their property and upon separation you are required to return it to them or (sometimes) destroy it, unless they agree that you may do otherwise.
This is the same as it would be the other way around: they also are required to return any property of yours that they may have. So if they allowed you to bring in a personal chair for the office, then they also must return it.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
March 24, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I'm interested that most of you are talking about two weeks notice when leaving a job.. Here in New Zealand the standard for IT (in my experience) is four weeks but my previous employer has been setting the notice for new IT staff as two months (calendar months, not eight weeks!!). I left there in September last year after handing in my notice in June!! Their justification (to me when I questioned it in my contract) was it allowed them time to recruit your replacement, have them work out their 1 month notice then have a couple of weeks hand-over... Can't say there is a lot of motivation left after 2 months...
March 24, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Two weeks is US standard. I actually have a contract specifying more.
Did your previous employer set their own policy? Is that legal in NZ?
March 25, 2009 at 1:44 pm
As far as I am aware (and this is just in my experience) so long as both parties agree you can set whatever notice period you want.. Of course I only agreed because they said "Agree to two months notice or don't take the promotion to DBA..." In the end it actually worked out well for me as I left to move cities so needed all the time I could get to sell the house, pack, organise movers etc....
April 19, 2009 at 6:46 pm
This issue is so focussed on one side, the leaving employee, that we seem to forget the complete equation. The single most important factor on whether employees will play nice during this end game is how the company treated that employee before, during, and after termination. If people are being escorted out (that's the equivalent of convicting someone before a trail), then the companies are asking leaving employees to work hard to figure out the optimum timing. No matter how careful the company, it's the employee who has the ultimate upper hand: timing. I can also see just due to one or two employees, HR overreacts by implementing draconian procedures. Show some respect, decency, and trust. Everyone will get back tons in return.
Have a points system for rewarding good employees during the 2-week period. It's finding creative solutions is where HR people fail miserably.
April 19, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Nicely put. I think HR does fail many times because they think that the same rules need to be applied the same way to all people.
Same rules, but flex them to fit the individual.
October 9, 2013 at 6:44 am
Wow this editorial brings back some memories. I remember first reading it at my previous job and thinking about how we had some clients shutting down business units and whether my job was secure. 2 weeks later, 3 of us were laid off. I had only been there 9 months so the bit of severance pay wasn't much but I had the new job before I would have been eligible to collect unemployment benefits.
The job I left to go there I gave my 2 weeks notice and worked them without any fanfare. It was a company with a lot of turnover so I guess there wasn't a concern about not letting the person work the notice period.
Where I am now they let you work the notice period. In fact, depending on the circumstance, they may also try to get you to stay. We've also had a guy leave and come back this year, so re-hires are permitted. I asked my boss to make it a condition of that guy's contract that he's not allowed to use cursors :hehe:
October 9, 2013 at 7:20 am
Years ago at my previous job, people were leaving left and right. I'm pretty sure every person gave a notice, and only a few were allowed to work it. They let me work my notice, I think mainly because I was working on the department's number one priority project. I haven't seen enough turnover at my current job to say what the usual procedure is.
Tony
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Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
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