March 7, 2009 at 8:20 am
t.walker (3/6/2009)
I really support that idea. I think a more private invited members forum would enable me to speak more freely/Although I am a rookie here, I am also a Microsoft Gold partner for SQL Server!
Since I am only a rookie, how about one of the 'old timers' starts the thread!
absolutely not. As an average Joe who does still try to contribute where I can, I don't see why I should be disbarred from some parts of this site. I don't think that is steve's intention for the ethos of this site.
If you want to discourse with only those whom you see to be your peers I am sure there are other outlets for that.
The best on this site are free to discuss on this site at any time, the knowledge that anyone could read it will help them ensure they post accurately and without disparaging people. Its educational for the rest of us and sometimes entertaining too!
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March 7, 2009 at 9:00 am
I'll vote for it, if someone will just tell me after the fact what was said. I'm dying of curiousity to know what he can't speak freely about.
Will there be darkened rooms lit only by a candle in the middle of the table? Will the members' faces be hooded, and their identities only confirmed by secret handshakes? Will living sacrifices be made to appease the Mother of All Threads?
fnord All knowing is The Thread. Mighty Mighty is The Thread. fnord
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
March 7, 2009 at 9:08 am
RBarryYoung (3/7/2009)
GilaMonster (3/7/2009)
t.walker (3/6/2009)
I really support that idea. I think a more private invited members forum would enable me to speak more freely/Just one question. How would you determine who's allowed in there and who's not?
"Aye, there's the rub.", to quote the Bard.
If you only allow the experts in - who would they make fun of?
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
March 7, 2009 at 10:26 am
Surprisingly there isn't a lot of poking fun in the MVP forums, except at each other.
I'm not sure how I'd choose people to get in. Likely based on past actions and reputation. If there was value in being able to discuss things without a lot of noise from people that don't want a serious discussion on some topic, I could do it. It's also nice that you can say things you can't say elsewhere.
There isn't anything major, IMHO in the MVP forums. It's just a time machine. We see things before others, and have a place to discuss them. However it is a place to also put yourself out there if you don't understand something. Usually it's complex things and you get answers from other experts, not people just chiming in.
I used to think we should disclose discussions from there that aren't NDA. I still think there's value in having someone summarize and put the notes out, but a full disclosure discourages the open atmosphere.
Think about it. Jeff, Gail can comment as well. It's a good place for discuss with less noise.
March 7, 2009 at 11:34 am
Steve Jones - Editor (3/7/2009)
I used to think we should disclose discussions from there that aren't NDA. I still think there's value in having someone summarize and put the notes out, but a full disclosure discourages the open atmosphere.Think about it. Jeff, Gail can comment as well. It's a good place for discuss with less noise.
I sure do appreciate both the offer and the honor, Steve... but, I have to be true to what I say and feel. There is likely nothing that I would say in such a group that I wouldn't say on an open forum. Perhaps Matt Miller said it best in a recent post...
Matt Miller (3/7/2009)
I'll take the "survive the open air critique model and maybe you didn't say something stupid" model we have going here.
The "noise" you speak of is part of the draw... it's an education in itself of what's actually going on and how people think in the real world. You just can't get that in private discussions.
The only exception to that rule that I can see as being useful, might be for article "pre-reviews"... [font="Arial Black"]a private author's forum [/font]for those who want the opinion of some of the Ninja's on this forum before they publish could be pretty cool. In such a case, I would suggest that the ability to view that particular forum be limited to folks who have already published or have a proven track record on this fine forum... say, at least 3 articles with the last 3 having an average of more than 3 stars and those good folks that the quorum of current members could vote in even if they haven't published. The authors making the submissions, unless already a member, wouldn't actually be able to get into the forum... rather, a summary of recommendations would be emailed back to the submitting author. That would guarantee the relative privacy of the response to the author. Participation by both the submitting author's and the membership would be 100% voluntary. Of course, that could turn out to be a lot of work for the members because some of the articles I've seen should never be allowed to take up space on a harddrive.
Hmmmm.... on second thought... nah... forget I mentioned it. It would end up being more like a bloody code review for those authors that don't give a damned to begin with.
Other than that, I'm just here to help others and learn some things on the way. I'd rather continue in that elite circle of fine people that I've come to know, appreciate, and trust... the people that give everything they've got on this forum and that certainly includes you.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 7, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (3/7/2009)
Surprisingly there isn't a lot of poking fun in the MVP forums, except at each other.
Of course not. That kind of behaviour would be unthinkable for most of the people who post there. Poking fun at someone in a place where they can neither see it nor respond is rude.
Jeff, Gail can comment as well. It's a good place for discuss with less noise.
The main value I get from the private newsgroups is the ability to ask a very technical question about something deep in the DB engine and have someone who worked on the code answer. That's not something we could reproduce here ever.
I don't see any value in an 'experts' only forum. It's not as if we have secret things that we can't discuss with 'normal' forum members. Also, the presence of an exclusive area will breed dissatisfaction. Some people who don't have access will resent it and there's no criteria or set of criteria that will satisfy everyone.
Jeff Moden (3/7/2009)
The only exception to that rule that I can see as being useful, might be for article "pre-reviews"... a private author's forum for those who want the opinion of some of the Ninja's on this forum before they publish could be pretty cool.
Now that's not a bad idea. I'd certainly like somewhere to post and get articles checked for oversights, omissions or silly mistakes before they go public.
If done, there would need to be more of a code-of-conduct than for the normal forums. Something like this:
1) The comments will be just that, comments. People will not rewrite your article for you.
2) Similarly for code, if it's wrong, expect to be told it's wrong, not for it to be rewritten for you. Anyone trying to publish has to take responsibility for their own work. If they don't then they shouldn't be published.
3) Expect harsh criticisms. This isn't a mutual praising circle. The comments may well simple read 'I suggest you put this in the nearest dustbin and start from scratch'
4) We're not full-time editors. Even full time editors expect good spelling and grammar. Articles full of spelling mistakes will have a single comment. 'Fix the spelling'
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 7, 2009 at 1:56 pm
I think the idea of an articles editorial board is a fantastic one, but having participated in one in another field let me say that is is a *lot* of work.
I have a good friend who is a Ph.D. and it takes him years to get some of his stuff to print, because publications in his field subject the content through peer review before ever accepting it. Sometimes a paper gets rejected until further research is done to support it.
I think it would be marvelous if SSC became known as a highly respected source of information online, because not just anything would be published. Of course some people would just publish elsewhere, but I think there is serious value created by setting some standards.
An additional benefit is that people submitting articles could take any critique in private, but if they just dump something out there, it can be publicly ripped to shreads. Better to discourage weak efforts privately so that the authors can save face.
Until you all get to that point, I wonder if I could run a piece of code past some of you? It's a handy technique that I haven't seen used around here, and I want to do an article on it. But I'd like to take my lumps on the technical side before I invest a lot of hours writing it up.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
March 7, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Bob Hovious (3/7/2009)
Until you all get to that point, I wonder if I could run a piece of code past some of you? It's a handy technique that I haven't seen used around here, and I want to do an article on it. But I'd like to take my lumps on the technical side before I invest a lot of hours writing it up.
Sure, not a problem for me... send it to me via email. I've done both code reviews and article reviews for a couple of folks, now.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 7, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Thanks Jeff. Let me set up some data generation and I'll email it to you.
__________________________________________________
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
March 7, 2009 at 4:21 pm
I'm aligned with those who don't see a special l33t forum for invited users, not that I'd get invited. Anything I'm going to post, especially questions when I have them, I'll post on the open forums. I can see where the MVP forum is useful to get at the Microsoft developers and have a place to discuss the NDA stuff, but we don't have that here.
I do like the idea of a reviewing section.... hmmmm... actually that might work over at PASS too. Can I steal the idea? Uh, I meant, borrow, with attribution?
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
March 7, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Grant Fritchey (3/7/2009)
I do like the idea of a reviewing section.... hmmmm... actually that might work over at PASS too. Can I steal the idea? Uh, I meant, borrow, with attribution?
I was actually thinking the same thing as far as PASS. If PASS really wants to become relevant beyond the summit this is a service that would be good for it's members.
Oh, I also think that it would be a nice idea for SSC as well. I know I try to pass my articles by my wife for general editing (spelling and grammar) and also to check for flow, as if she can follow it, being non-technical, then a technical person should be able to, but I don't have anyone that I pass them by for technical content.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 7, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Take it to PASS and it would be great for them to review stuff that is published elsewhere.
I don't want to get too much editorial stuff here. We like the low bar, encouraging people to publish that might not do it at SQL Mag, SimpleTalk, etc.
March 7, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Heh... it's obvious that a lot of the articles on other sites, including SQL Mag, aren't deeply reviewed for technical content either. Some of those articles are nothing more than than further promulgation of the "SQL Clone" epidemic. I especially love the articles that talk about set based programming and how a numbers or Tally table can really save your skin... and then they use a bloody While loop to generate the Tally table. What a lost opportunity to show the first step towards understanding set based programming.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 7, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Excellent. Consider it borrowed. I'm working on the first draft of a review process for PASS and the new SQL Standard so I'll incorporate this. It's actually not too far off what we were thinking about doing in the first place. Thanks.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
March 8, 2009 at 3:22 am
Bob Hovious (3/7/2009)
I think the idea of an articles editorial board is a fantastic one, but having participated in one in another field let me say that is is a *lot* of work.I have a good friend who is a Ph.D. and it takes him years to get some of his stuff to print, because publications in his field subject the content through peer review before ever accepting it. Sometimes a paper gets rejected until further research is done to support it.
I think it would be marvelous if SSC became known as a highly respected source of information online, because not just anything would be published. Of course some people would just publish elsewhere, but I think there is serious value created by setting some standards.
I wasn't suggesting anything as intensive as an academic peer review. We don't have the resources for that and I suspect it's against what Steve has in mind for the articles.
What I was suggesting was a place where people publishing articles could voluntarily submit their work pre-publishing for feedback before they send it to Steve for publishing.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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