July 31, 2013 at 9:39 am
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
Not sure this is a change. I've worked with products based on SQL Server for 20+ years. I've seen plenty of this. What's distressing is things aren't getting better.
July 31, 2013 at 9:42 am
OCTom (7/31/2013)
We still produce lots of software that takes too long to develope, costs too much, and often has too many bugs.[\quote]
What you're asking for Steve is impossible.
You can have it fast, cheap, and good. Pick two. 🙂
LOL, not sure I was asking for anything, but implying we should be doing better, and getting better at testing. Not sure we are.
July 31, 2013 at 9:44 am
Brad Hurlbert (7/31/2013)
I concur with the idea that developers need continuing education and ownership. I also want to add the business principals. Too often, software development is treated as an expense meant to be kept as low as possible. Software developers? They get treated as if they are a little more than advanced accounting clerks. And the biggest mistake that management of any business can make is to be satisfied by the low-bar metric that "It works". I've raised attention to many senior management folks the lack of quality in the their code-base, their architecture and their testing. Only to be looked at as if I were making a mountain out of mole hill. Then they say something like "It works" so what is the problem?In any case, there a many many factors contributing to low quality code and architectures. We definitely need to continue the pursuit of high quality in our code, regardless of those who only speak the words and implement no real quality control.
Good points, though I'd note that if you treat software development as some clerk, you'll get clerk level work. You don't need to treat developers as princes and princesses, but treat their work with a level of importance that's equivalent to how you'll feel if the software doesn't work well.
July 31, 2013 at 10:07 am
Time for the morning ramble -
First off I am old-school. What I do is a reflection on me. It is not the specifications not the tool. Further it is not a product of them or those in accounting or Human resources, it is my product.
Second when it fails I do not point fingers at the OS or other new code nor the database. I own the problem. I find the problem and I either have one of the other staff address the problem or I fix it myself. And when the OS or other technology changes, my work needs to either have anticipated the change, be impervious to the change, or be changed to work on the new platform.
Third I remember the old TV add where a automobile break repair company said that they stand behind their product. They were openly criticized because if they really believed in what they were doing, they would stand in front of their product, and later they did as cars would drive right up to them and show that the breaks really worked. I need to stand in front of and behind my product. It is not my output but part of me. I created it and no one else can understand it without my insight. I need to make it work right.
Lastly - I believe that if I can trumpet my successes, I should also admit my failures. Not everything I have done has worked first time every time. And some things has had to be readdressed and redone. SO WHAT! Development is a series of controlled failures breaking potentially new ground on the way to a previously unachieved goal. By definition failure is part of the process of getting there. However, once you have achieved the goal, you should be able to develop a process that gets you there repeatedly without failure.
Parting word - When perfection is expected, the one who is expecting it of others is most often disappointed. When it is expected that one must work with a creator to achieve a level of success over time, the goals are often reached.
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
July 31, 2013 at 10:42 am
Miles Neale (7/31/2013)
Time for the morning ramble -First off I am old-school. What I do is a reflection on me. It is not the specifications not the tool. Further it is not a product of them or those in accounting or Human resources, it is my product.
Second when it fails I do not point fingers at the OS or other new code nor the database. I own the problem. I find the problem and I either have one of the other staff address the problem or I fix it myself. And when the OS or other technology changes, my work needs to either have anticipated the change, be impervious to the change, or be changed to work on the new platform.
Third I remember the old TV add where a automobile break repair company said that they stand behind their product. They were openly criticized because if they really believed in what they were doing, they would stand in front of their product, and later they did as cars would drive right up to them and show that the breaks really worked. I need to stand in front of and behind my product. It is not my output but part of me. I created it and no one else can understand it without my insight. I need to make it work right.
Lastly - I believe that if I can trumpet my successes, I should also admit my failures. Not everything I have done has worked first time every time. And some things has had to be readdressed and redone. SO WHAT! Development is a series of controlled failures breaking potentially new ground on the way to a previously unachieved goal. By definition failure is part of the process of getting there. However, once you have achieved the goal, you should be able to develop a process that gets you there repeatedly without failure.
Parting word - When perfection is expected, the one who is expecting it of others is most often disappointed. When it is expected that one must work with a creator to achieve a level of success over time, the goals are often reached.
M.
Well said Miles! I wish more companies were as patient as mine to let their employees learn from their mistakes.
Tony
------------------------------------
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
July 31, 2013 at 11:23 am
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 31, 2013 at 1:20 pm
I totally agree with what you said, Miles. When something goes wrong with software I've worked on, I always assume it's my fault and look at what's happening with it. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, but I always own it, when I've made the mistake. I have worked with some developers who never accept responsibility for what they've done, and instead blame others. No fun.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
July 31, 2013 at 2:01 pm
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
You are not talking about SharePoint per chance, are you? 🙂
July 31, 2013 at 2:30 pm
Revenant (7/31/2013)
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
You are not talking about SharePoint per chance, are you? 🙂
Heh - no
But if we want to open that can of worms we could through MS CRM or Dynamics
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 31, 2013 at 6:14 pm
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
Revenant (7/31/2013)
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
You are not talking about SharePoint per chance, are you? 🙂
Heh - no
But if we want to open that can of worms we could through MS CRM or Dynamics
Please don't -- too easy a target.
July 31, 2013 at 6:17 pm
Revenant (7/31/2013)
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
You are not talking about SharePoint per chance, are you? 🙂
Haha no, but it is a financial piece of software. Best left unnamed.
I just fail to see how databases without the base core of primary keys, foreign key constraints, indexes, etc can be overlooked in any database before shipping it out to a customer.
July 31, 2013 at 6:32 pm
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Revenant (7/31/2013)
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
You are not talking about SharePoint per chance, are you? 🙂
Haha no, but it is a financial piece of software. Best left unnamed.
I just fail to see how databases without the base core of primary keys, foreign key constraints, indexes, etc can be overlooked in any database before shipping it out to a customer.
Have you ever looked into ReportServer database? Now that is a duly constituted part of SQL Server.
July 31, 2013 at 6:34 pm
Revenant (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Revenant (7/31/2013)
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
You are not talking about SharePoint per chance, are you? 🙂
Haha no, but it is a financial piece of software. Best left unnamed.
I just fail to see how databases without the base core of primary keys, foreign key constraints, indexes, etc can be overlooked in any database before shipping it out to a customer.
Have you ever looked into ReportServer database? Now that is a duly constituted part of SQL Server.
A bit different though IMO as it isn't a true OLTP database.
July 31, 2013 at 6:44 pm
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Revenant (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Revenant (7/31/2013)
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
You are not talking about SharePoint per chance, are you? 🙂
Haha no, but it is a financial piece of software. Best left unnamed.
I just fail to see how databases without the base core of primary keys, foreign key constraints, indexes, etc can be overlooked in any database before shipping it out to a customer.
Have you ever looked into ReportServer database? Now that is a duly constituted part of SQL Server.
A bit different though IMO as it isn't a true OLTP database.
Well yes, it is not OLTP, but IMO it ought to be an example of a good design. I was trying to make the point that it is not, unfortunately.
July 31, 2013 at 6:49 pm
Revenant (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Revenant (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Revenant (7/31/2013)
SQLRNNR (7/31/2013)
PhilipC (7/31/2013)
Has anyone noticed how vendor databases in general are getting worse and worse? It seems we're getting to an age where regardless of quality, it's just get the product out the door as quickly as possible.The company I work for just purchased a product which landed with me to install the database, and what I find is a database with very few tables actually having primary keys, no indexes and after a big data load they wonder why the performance is shot to hell.....
I am in the same boat with several of my clients.
They have vendor databases that are really pathetic in design and performance - and the vendor won't provide any real support other than to tell them to get better hardware.
You are not talking about SharePoint per chance, are you? 🙂
Haha no, but it is a financial piece of software. Best left unnamed.
I just fail to see how databases without the base core of primary keys, foreign key constraints, indexes, etc can be overlooked in any database before shipping it out to a customer.
Have you ever looked into ReportServer database? Now that is a duly constituted part of SQL Server.
A bit different though IMO as it isn't a true OLTP database.
Well yes, it is not OLTP, but IMO it ought to be an example of a good design. I was trying to make the point that it is not, unfortunately.
Yeah that's a fair enough point. Most of time, it seems to be rapid development over quality development that wins out. As a DBA, it just becomes a nightmare trying to support these kind of databases and maintain some kind of performance level when the vendors show very little interest in improving things.
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