November 25, 2008 at 10:01 am
Great post, Manie! This is a timely topic and I appreciate it. There will always be shallow people that are quick to expose their ignorance with arrogant attitudes or derogatory remarks. The Bible says that even a fool will be thought intelligent if he keeps silent.
I appreciate the wisdom dispensed by the many excellent posters on this forum. It is because of their selfless efforts that I am able learn what I need to do my job without making disastrous mistakes. I will not name them here as there is no way I could mention them all and I do not want to leave any out.
In short, when it comes to posting or responding to posts, I think of what the famous cowboy philosopher, Will Rogers, once said: "The problem ain't what we know, but what we know that just ain't so!"
Cheers
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"No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious." - George Bernard Shaw
November 25, 2008 at 11:50 am
Appreciate the article greatly. I have been working with SQL for a while and have built some nice tools for routine task, but have never been able to share them, or it is tedious to look for solutions others have already found to similar situations.
November 25, 2008 at 11:59 am
Good article, good discussion.
I always try to have as much patience as possible with questions on these forums. I have to agree with Jeff that obvious interview/test questions have to be handled differently than "real" questions, but I try to err on the side of answering where I shouldn't rather than not answering where I should.
I don't really have a problem with arrogant questions. My biggest problem in forums like this is when something in the question isn't clear, and I ask for clarification, and either never get an answer, or get something that doesn't actually clarify anything at all. I understand that some/many people posting here don't speak English as their primary language (nor SQL as their second language), but there have been a few times where I've had to give up on a thread because I simply couldn't get some critical clarification of what was being asked for.
Where I have a BIG problem is, however, none of the things that have been mentioned yet. It's when someone comes here, asks for help in performance tuning a complex stored procedure, gets an answer, and immediately follows that up with a dozen more of a similar nature, all requiring hours of work to get fixed up. It doesn't happen often, but it has happened a few times. There's a big difference between going to a forum for help, learning something, and moving on with it, and going to a forum for free work on complex projects.
Outside of that, I love this forum (and related sites). I've been away from it for a couple of months, because of mad-crazy workload, but I'm back as much as I can be.
If I'd known such sites existed while I was learning SQL, I would have had a much easier time of it on a number of the projects I took on!
So I try to help as much as I can, while I learn as much as I can. Half the time, answering someone's question teaches me new things about subjects I would never have thought of, but which are definitely useful!
So, yeah, good article on a good subject. Keep the forums rollin'!
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
November 25, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Steve
I don't know if this is an option/possible for this website but I did see something on a other site recently that provides the awarding of points when a question post in answered and the points vary based on well the original poster felt the answer was. I'm sure it's not perfect but it's a way of giving some level of recognition to those who reply a lot and reply with useful info and not just simply a reply.
Not sure what kind of promos if any you can get with Red-Gate but it might be nice if there was something like a Rewards System in place that would allow someone like Jeff (who replies A LOT) to get something for that effort like a free copy of some Red-Gate software or promotional product (perhaps even from another vendor) like a shirt.
Just a thought.
Kindest Regards,
Just say No to Facebook!November 25, 2008 at 2:21 pm
I agree with the consensus above that I love to help others, for very selfish reasons, I expand my knowledge, but it is a drag when people ask to do their work for them as a freebee.
Is there a site of useful utilities/solutions that can be leveraged for ideas. One that posed a bad problem for us was solved with a SSIS package to rebuild SQL index across all server Databases on a daily basis only between 7-9PM and then would have to stop itself only between indexes never in the middle :w00t:. It had to select tables that were larger than a specific size, then depending upon the table size defrag when the level of fragmentation varied from 10-85% so that the same index was not rebuilt every night, determine whether to reorganize/rebuild the indexes, and finally log it so that I can track frequency for fine tuning. It maintains tables from 34M-50K rows across 8 databases and very rarely has to stop due to time/server load. Last time tweaked was over a month ago.
November 26, 2008 at 12:35 pm
I am all about sharing knowledge and bettering others. HOWEVER! I am also extremely insulted when someone asks me to teach them how to do everything in a cliff's notes version. Why? It is INSULTING! We have spent many years learning and perfecting what we do. If there was the ability to provide an adequate Cliffs Notes version we wouldn't need to have DBA's. We recently rolled out a new SQL Server based product and our training group wants to give our installers enough knowledge to function with SQL. I like that. I don't like that they want me to summarize EVERYTHING i do into a 2 hour session because the Installer WILL NEED it. Give them enough to install the product and do the initial troubleshooting. There is a reason we have a support staff of DBAs at their beconned call.
The best thing my mentor did for me when i started was say 'Figure it out'. Seldom are all problems identical. If you take if then else approach at SQL Server troubleshooting you will limit yourself. You must treat each situation as a new dynamic living issue. I like the post earlier along the same lines. I also follow the Figure it Out yourself then we can discuss before you implement. It is a great teaching\learning process and yet safeguards the new person from failure.
November 26, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Robert,
I agree and I'm always happy to see people posting hints rather than complete solutions. Especially when people haven't made any attempt at it themselves.
November 26, 2008 at 12:51 pm
I served 4 years in the Country Club (aka USAF) as a computer operator, even graduated as an Honor Grad from tech school. It didn't truely prepare me for my first duty station, even though it did help me as I was qualified by my supervisor to work by my self after only 2 months when normal training time at a new duty site is 6 months.
This is what bugs people, I tell everyone that the first thing my supervisor did was to teach me to read. When ever we had a problem and I came to him, first thing he asked was "What does the manual say?". Then he started teaching me tricks of the trade that made me even better. He even taught me how to run our computer system without the SPO (Supervisory Printer Online - Burroughs B3500). Ours broke one night on second shift (the busiest for batch processing) and after calling the FE, he said we could sit and wait, or I could learn something. We ran that computer system for 3 hours using the card punch machine, the card reader, and the line printer. Shocked the FE when he came in to work on the SPO.
Sharing knowledge is great, but you have have to want to learn. Same thing happened shortly before I left England. The people I was working with at the time then, all they did was move the card punch in the computer room for me. The didn't care to learn how to keep things running.
November 26, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Good points.
I share your frustration when we seem to have to hunt endlessly for a post by somebody who has managed to resolve a problem that you now face. Far too often the answer is found elsewhere (not on MS's website).
Sometimes there are problems that we cannot resolve no matter how many things we try and ultimately can only be resolved by those who have access to the source code.
BOL is a treasure trove of information but I do sometimes find MS's documentation and proactiveness in helping to resolve common issues, somewhat wanting.
November 26, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I agree with Rob. I also find there is general lack of feedback from the people you help, I get lots of feed back here ;). But I have on other newsgroups, where you provide the solution and then you don’t hear back from the person if it helped or not for days on end.
I have helped people with SQL Questions, queries, and I always tell them in BOL if you go here and here you get the answer. What happens week later same person question again, they don't like to investigate it. So I end up helping them again, if I don't help them then I get labeled as "not being cooperative". So I end up taking the people through step-by-step on how to do something they should know how to do.
What makes it worse is when I see email later on from them to (upper management or clients) stating how issues were resolved by them. No recognition for your efforts or such, but if you didn’t help or didn’t step the person through the issues then it makes it up the chain and becomes entirely my fault.
I am very new to SQL DBA role, comparing to everyone here :blush:. About four years, but I always dig into BOL, news groups, Google to get the answer. To that end I also started blog’ing to keep it straight in my brain on how to do stuff in SQL or new things I learn. And keep the links to all Articles, posts by other people that show how to do stuff better then what I have seen or known.
So thanks again 🙂
Mohit K. Gupta, MCITP: Database Administrator (2005), My Blog, Twitter: @SQLCAN[/url].
Microsoft FTE - SQL Server PFE
* Some time its the search that counts, not the finding...
* I didn't think so, but if I was wrong, I was wrong. I'd rather do something, and make a mistake than be frightened and be doing nothing. :smooooth:[/font]
November 27, 2008 at 3:39 am
Look, don't get me wrong here. I absolutely believe in learning the hard way because that is the things you will remember most. You look for help in BOL and you read up about a certain subject you are battling with but in the end it's just that critical point you are missing that you cannot find in the documentation. This is where a forum like SCC comes in. To all the newbies and rookies I'd like to say: "Read it up. Don't expect people to hold your hand because then you are not going to learn a thing".
To the professionals I want to say: "If you want to allow them to do it to you then it's your own fault. However, don't let somebody suffocate in their own blood. Sometimes they just need that extra little push to get going". I had a teacher that one day told me: "When you're an adult, never forget that you were also a child once." Let us not forget that we were newbies once.
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
:-PManie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Holy Bible
I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. - Everett Mckinley Dirkson (Well, I am trying. - Manie Verster)
November 27, 2008 at 6:55 am
And Jeff makes a good point too. Not enough of you guys get credit for posting knowledge...
Hear, hear. 🙂
But I think we all owe thanks to folks like Jeff and Steve...
Ditto 😀
..... and don't forget ....
All hail Jeff, the SQL God :w00t:
Far away is close at hand in the images of elsewhere.
Anon.
November 27, 2008 at 7:04 am
Manie Verster (11/27/2008)
To the professionals I want to say: "If you want to allow them to do it to you then it's your own fault. However, don't let somebody suffocate in their own blood. Sometimes they just need that extra little push to get going". I had a teacher that one day told me: "When you're an adult, never forget that you were also a child once." Let us not forget that we were newbies once.
Both good points, and in those cases I encourage people to come talk to me. I like it when people do their research and come talk to me about what they found. I think it shows that a) they are willing to learn b) they dont' mind asking for help. I don't even have problem with someone coming to ask for guidelines on where he should be looking, I like to say "I'll show you the path to the door bud, but you got to walk through it". What I was saying my eailer post was the type I don't like is do my work for me, because I am too busy to figure something new out. Or the other extreem (which is what I run into), I did my research I know what I am doing (enough to be dangerous), I'll just request a change like that. So when I tell them no, with my reasoning, most people are not happy.
Thats all, and I agree with your comments 100% Specially the "When you're ...", when I am in my Kendo (Japanese Martial art) I have to tell myself that all the time. Because some things come to me easier then they do other in class, but I been doing it for seven years :P.
Thanks Manie :).
Mohit K. Gupta, MCITP: Database Administrator (2005), My Blog, Twitter: @SQLCAN[/url].
Microsoft FTE - SQL Server PFE
* Some time its the search that counts, not the finding...
* I didn't think so, but if I was wrong, I was wrong. I'd rather do something, and make a mistake than be frightened and be doing nothing. :smooooth:[/font]
November 27, 2008 at 9:49 am
G Bryant McClellan (11/25/2008)
Manie makes some very good points. I wish SQLServerCentral had been around in 1994 when I started working with SQL Server.And Jeff makes a good point too. Not enough of you guys get credit for posting knowledge and wisdom on your own initiative without the thought of recompense. I know I come here because of the wealth of information represented by the membership. I can always find something interesting to read, frequently an answer to a question (whether or not I knew I had the question) and I can occasionally put my 2 cents in for some value.
But I think we all owe thanks to folks like Jeff and Steve and all the other experienced people who post information for the rest of us to make use of. Thanks, guys. You don't hear it often enough, but I believe you help more than you know. Just look at the number of members. That says something by itself.
Well thanks Bryant. :blush: I really appreciate that. I do it because I just like to see people's "lights" turn on. When I get a hearty "thanks", it makes my day.
Hmmmm... random thought... I wonder how many school teachers get that kind of thanks. They teach to see people's "lights" turn on, too, and they probably get it less than anyone on a forum.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
November 27, 2008 at 10:17 am
thisisfutile (11/25/2008)
Jeff Moden (11/25/2008)
...Heh... then there's the "intelligent" ones that say things like "performance" doesn't matter and will argue for hours about it. The only reason why I continue in such a debate is because I don't want any newbies to think that performance doesn't matter.
...
In an effort to both edify a strong forum poster (Jeff) and to give kudos to a great forum (SSC), I'd like to quote Jeff and point everyone's attention to a post he just made (< 24hours ago...I think). It's toward the bottom, me quoting Jeff, quoting me, quoting Jeff (Post #608311). Both his professionalism and his conviction won me over to his side of the argument(http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic607292-1424-6.aspx).
In short, I agree with Manie that these forums, especially for fledgling DBA's like myself (title withheld for fear of seeing a dark side of Jeff that I haven't encountered yet. ;)), are indispensable.
Wow. Thanks for the great compliment and support!
Heh... yeah... I love it when two or more folks get engaged in good stong conversations with good code proofs and good examples. I've learned a huge amount from those especially if I can squeeze my way into the conversation. I love good proofs like that until someone reduces the dialog to ruble with name calling or feather fluffing like one of the folks has started doing on the very thread thisisfutile mentioned... it's so very hard to suppress the "dark side", then. But, in most cases, I go back to only that which is valuable... the proof is always in the code. 😀
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
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